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What is to prevent ANYONE from putting a fancy label on such a bottle and marketing it?

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Swami said:
For the sake of this thread, let's assume there IS something to Homeopathy.

As there is no way:

1. to chemically or chromatographically test the water/elixir

2. to certify the manufacturer (there is no regulation)

3. to test the results (other than collecting years of anecdotes which may be purely placebo)

How can you be sure that what you are buying is not merely ordinary distilled water?

What is to prevent ANYONE from putting a fancy label on such a bottle and marketing it?

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There's no scientific evidence for the essential oil of Tea Tree curing pink eye either but it does.

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Swami said:
Thanks for failing to answer a single question.

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Your welcome!

I'll use the ADD excuse.

I would think if you could catch a manufacturer selling it with printed labels claiming to be a diluted homeopathic tincture,  with evidence that will hold up in court that they are NOT diluting said property into the water but just bottling distilled water, you may have a case and be able to shut them down.

By law they can't be advertised as cures, however, if they do advertise they are diluted homeopathic tinctures and in fact are not, there has to be some consumer fraud that would hold up in court of law.

People should research the people and companies they buy that stuff from and get refferals.

I'm not a consumer of homeopathic remedies myself but I am of essential oils and I do my research on who I buy from. Some jerkies out there sell stuff as undiluted to get full price for an absolute when it is diluted with a base oil hard to detect.

Buyer of both alternative and modern medicine beware I say! Do you homework for both and get referals.

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Swami said:
There is no way of knowing if you are getting distilled water, or a homeopathic remedy, which is why im pretty sure, the hard-core advocates of homeopathy make their own tinctures.

Um, a tincture is alcohol-based. 

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Diploid said:
From the National Council Against Health Fraud:

http://ncahf.org/

Thus, D.D. Palmer invented chiropractic, named it, and established a guild of practitioners to further its development. For this reason chiropractic fits the dictionary definition of a cult (i.e. a system for the cure of disease based upon dogma set forth by its promulgator) (Webster's New Seventh Collegiate Dictionary).

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Swami said:
You reference an entirely different procedure that is not even remotely related to homeopathy. Distilling an essential oil in alochol is NOTHING like molecular imprinting. Not underssanding the subject matter makes it difficult to have rational discourse.

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Swami said:
I would think if you could catch a manufacturer selling it with printed labels claiming to be a diluted homeopathic tincture, with evidence that will hold up in court that they are NOT diluting said property into the water but just bottling distilled water, you may have a case and be able to shut them down.

Ah, but you make my point for me. There is no way to distinguish the end product of homeopathy from distilled water.

Remember my old sig? "A Difference that makes no difference; IS no difference."

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Redstorm said:
So research scientists never test "modern medical science"?

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psilocyberin said:

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Redstorm said:
So research scientists never test "modern medical science"?

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im sure they do.... but im still not seeing the relevance.

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Swami said:
I would think if you could catch a manufacturer selling it with printed labels claiming to be a diluted homeopathic tincture, with evidence that will hold up in court that they are NOT diluting said property into the water but just bottling distilled water, you may have a case and be able to shut them down.

Ah, but you make my point for me. There is no way to distinguish the end product of homeopathy from distilled water.

Remember my old sig? "A Difference that makes no difference; IS no difference."

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What did you miss here. The ONLY claim they make to call it a homeopathic tincture versus distilled water is that it ran through a dilution process.

If the end result is the same by molecular physical standards then so what? People are buying water that has been through a said process and that has some worth to them or they wouldn't buy it.

As long as it was put through the process then, its a fair deal. If it wasn't then, thats fraud. 

I'll make it simple to understand.

It's the difference between saying- this rock went to the moon and back and this rock never left the planet. Same limestone, one has just been through a journey that has meaning and value to another.

I don't even use the stuff, but I'll protect peoples right to buy it if they want too, know what they are buying and are experiencing results too boot.

 

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1. As there is NO METHOD of DE-IMPRINTING, then every substance that has ever been in that water for the last hundred million years would certainly also leave it's mark.

2. As the remaining substance is 1 part per trillion or less; merely opening the bottle would allow hundreds of thousands time more essence of mold, pollen, gas, dust etc. than were ever in the solution; basically polluting it immediately.

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I won't argue against that consideration as I considered it myself before and its pretty funny if there is anything to "memory water".

swam, what your problem with placebo effect giving people results. Would you rather them continue living with what they are dealing with that modern medicine can't help them with?

Isn't that as control freakish as the government wanting to take medicinal pot away from people in pain if it brings them results?

If its proven too or not isn't the point. The point is, if something brings results regarding ones state of health, they should have a right to it. who is another to deny them of that- especially especially something as harmless as  the equivalent of distilled WATER?

Do you know trump is charging $3.50 for a 12 oz bottle of his water. People pay 3 times as much to buy his name on the label. Trump claims it really does taste more like water.

Okay, I can't continue this discusion without getting silly now. This is ridiculous. Illegalizing water.

Thanks all!

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psilocyberin said:
just as there is no way to distinguish if someone was "cured" by modern science pill, or the placebo effect?

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psilocyberin said:
To understand things like the placebo effect, one has to turn to belief.

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Swami, modern medicine has NO CURE for arthritis and a heap load of other maladies. So if these people modern medicine CAN NOT help turn else where and find relief, what is your problem with that?

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MushmanTheManic said:
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/25/45/10390

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Events that might take place in the brain after placebo administration

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Phluck said:

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Swami, modern medicine has NO CURE for arthritis and a heap load of other maladies. So if these people modern medicine CAN NOT help turn else where and find relief, what is your problem with that?

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They make a lot of claims about the mechanism behind homeopathy which do not make any sense. There are many therapies which do not necessarily require lying that are just as effective. There are also many activities which do not make any dubious claims at all, which can be just as effective as any of these therapies, just by elevating peoples moods.

When you start making things up unscientifically, and starting emotional debates about their effectivness, you create a dogmatic opposition to science and proper research methods. This puts people in the mindset to oppose research funding to want to avoid mainstream medicine in all circumstances, even in the cases where it unquestionably has the most effective treatment.

Cancer, for example, is a very strange disease. Unlike most diseases, it's not an infection, it's a part of yourself, growing out of control and erratically. Because of this, treatments have to attack your own native cells, and can cause many unpleasant side effects, which makes many people suspicious and apphrensive about the mainstream treatments. It's also strange because every now and then, our bodies overtake it completely, and terminal patients are able to recover fully.

Many people try alternative medicines, and as a result, many people who have had sudden, extremely unexpected disappearances of their cancer have been trying odd cures, and they will often attribute them to their "miraculous" cures. When their doctors tell them that they don't know why they were cured, they often take this as an affirmation that the alternative medicine caused the cure, even though there is no such evidence.

When people are claiming that medicines like homeopathy shouldn't be criticized, it sends the message that it's wrong to ask questions about where they came up with their theories. Even if they don't make sense.

It's a good idea to engage in any activity you can to lift your mood, especially if you're facing something daunting like a serious illness. Anything from massage therapy to excercise, to artistic expression can be a great idea. However, practices that promote unscientific and completely fabricated explanations for their mechanism sound pretty clos to fraud for me.

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Diploid said:
It is a fact of Federal law that a product can not be sold as a cure for disease without being approved by the FDA

If I went to sell oranges to people with scurvy telling them it would cure it, I could go to jail for fraud. It would be illegal for me to do so in the U.S.
Vitamin C, which is in oranges, cures scurvy, and the FDA knows this.

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Swami said:
Let's reign that in just a bit.

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The pharmaceuticals companies together with the medical establishment pushed the FDA into making it illegal to sell "raw" apricot seeds or vitamin B17 with information about its effects on cancer. Even to this day, you can't get raw apricot seeds in your health food store, only the sun dried ones which have all the important enzymes killed off.

Pharmaceutical companies only conduct studies on patented chemicals they invent so that at the end of their study, if the drug gets approved, they have sole rights on its sale. (They make back tons more than the mere 250 million that they invested) They never do studies on foods that can't be patented and that can be sold by any supermarket.

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Swami said:
no, but I dont think that the FDA is infallible,
OK

Nor do I think that the FDA should be looked upon as infallible
You already said that.

I agree with your assessment, but that, of course, has NOTHING to do with the (in)validity of homeopathy.

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