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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Homeopathy
    #4101711 - 04/27/05 04:52 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I find it hard to believe that educated adults literally and figuratively swallow this pseudo-science.

Even the most preliminary of mental investigations (no need for a single lab or double-blind test) shows the gaping hole in this form of "remedy".

A medicine is diluted in water some billion or more times and is supposed to be more efficacious than the regular macro dosage. (Is two grams of the same stash of mushrooms more mind-bending than four grams? Hell no!) Extrapolation in the same direction would show that taking nothing at all should be the most healing and efficacious of all. This makes no sense at all.

BTW, a BBC producer took the time to investigate and attempted to replicate a well-known homeopathic practioner's "research" and naturally came up with nothing at all.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/27/05 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #4101857 - 04/27/05 07:51 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

BTW, a BBC producer took the time to investigate and attempted to replicate a well-known homeopathic practioner's "research" and naturally came up with nothing at all.

That's because he had a bad attitude.

Interestingly, bad attitude on the part of the researcher is also blamed for the failure of 'water dowsers' to find water in experimentally rigid conditions.

See a pattern here? Scientific researchers really need to get with it and improve their disposition if they expect results.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #4101907 - 04/27/05 09:05 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

"A medicine is diliuted in water some billion or more times and is supposed to be more efficacious than the regular macro dosage. (Is two grams of the same stash of mushrooms more mind-bending than four grams? Hell no!) Extrapolation in the same direction would show that taking nothing at all should be the most healing and efficacious of all. This makes no sense at all."

Ya, it doesn't make sense. Just because we can't grasp that idea doesn't mean you should ignore what it can do. Orthodox medicine doesn't want to accept that this "strange" medicine might work. But it has been proven to work in many cases....

Hey if it works it works, just because science can't prove it doesn't mean it should be dis-credited. Placebo or not, it has the power to heal, and thats all that matters isn't it?

btw swami how much have you read about homeopathy and from what side of the "spectrume" did you gather your information?


Edited by bellylard (04/27/05 09:12 AM)


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Offlinetrouted
journeyman
Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 94
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4101911 - 04/27/05 09:16 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Whether or not homeopathy "is real" or what have you, describing it by stating that "A medicine is diliuted in water some billion or more times and is supposed to be more efficacious than the regular macro dosage" is entirely inaccurate. You don't just take small amount of medicines. The guiding principle is "like cures like" (hence the name). Wikipedia gives the example of using quinine to treat malaria because quinine taken in large doses creates malaria-like symptoms. Similarly, marijuana has been used the world over for thousands of years to treat flemmy cough and congestion (see Rastch, Marijuana Medicine). Though this might seem counter-intuitive at first, I for one have noticed that if I am congested, smoking a little pot will clear me right out. Of course, one must obtain a balance.

All in all, I know little about homeopathy, and I'm not about to pretend I do. I just wanted to raise the point that what seems to be your fundamental objection to homeopathy is inaccurate.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4101922 - 04/27/05 09:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Hey if it works it works

But it doesn't work. That's what Swami's poiting out:

Quote:

BTW, a BBC producer took the time to investigate and attempted to replicate a well-known homeopathic practioner's "research" and naturally came up with nothing at all.





--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4101945 - 04/27/05 09:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But it has been proven to work in many cases....



No!

Quote:

Placebo or not, it has the power to heal, and thats all that matters isn't it?



No! Poor people buy a few drops of water for $10. It's morally wrong. Big and small companies earn huge amounts of money by selling water/bullshit. :sad:

The big companies know their bullshit isn't working because they could do a double-blind research and prove that they are right and make way more money and help more people, but they don't. Why? .....

It's a stupid fairy tale based on nothing. Different homeopathic physicians tell totally different stories about homeopathy.

Quote:

"A medicine is diluted in water some billion or more times and is supposed to be more efficacious than the regular macro dosage" is entirely inaccurate.



No, it is accurate! D6=100000x diluted, D10 means 10000000000x diluted, etc, etc...

The theory behind homeopathy is crap based on nothing. Why would we believe that? Because it sounds nice? Why?


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Annom]
    #4102147 - 04/27/05 11:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I just read a book by a well known Dr. of Homeopathy and he claims to have healed many people. "Homeopathy: Medicine For The New Millenium" - by George Vithoulkas. Maybe you guys should pick up a copy before you make these claims that it's a bogus practice.

BTW, a BBC producer took the time to investigate and attempted to replicate a well-known homeopathic practioner's "research" and naturally came up with nothing at all."

No doubt. I don't know many producers who try to mimic Dr's that have years and years of schooling behind them who would get results, or be dumb enough to think they would........


Conventional medicine has failed me. So, this is another path I'm willing to try. If it never exsited I would be without hope of getting better.......


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (04/27/05 11:39 AM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #4102171 - 04/27/05 11:44 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

placebo...


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4102184 - 04/27/05 11:49 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Swami, I'm with you all the way. I've been workin in the natural foods industry for 20 years as a supplements buyer, seller, ect.

I've listened to all the stories and paid close attention to the type of people who tell the stories and have worked with them as customers for years sometimes. Can you say Placebo? But if that's what you need to float yer boat, then go for it.

This new structured water that's flooding (pun intended) the market is the same kind of snake oil. P.T. Barnum said it best. There's one born every minute. :grin: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #4102194 - 04/27/05 11:53 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Yes Homeopathy is a load of crap.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Icelander]
    #4102203 - 04/27/05 12:01 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Could you be more specific.....And what about people who have had homepathy work for them,with serious diseases like gangrene?


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4102218 - 04/27/05 12:06 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bellylard said:
Could you be more specific.....And what about people who have had homepathy work for them,with serious diseases like gangrene?




More specific about what? And could you be more specific about these cures of gangrene. I would like to see the evidence please! My mind is open here. I do it for a living and I make $$ off homeopathy. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Icelander]
    #4102241 - 04/27/05 12:13 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Be more specific about the stories you've heard.

In the book "Homeopathy: Medicine For The New Millenium" - by George Vithoulkas


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (04/27/05 12:14 PM)


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4102268 - 04/27/05 12:22 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

The dangers of this type of hogwash can go beyond wasting money too...

I got this from this weeks commentary from Randi.org

We too, in the Netherlands, cannot escape the frauds. I would like to bring to your attention a particularly annoying person, Joke Damman, who goes under the name of "Jomanda." She's a "healer." She conducts so-called healings which draw large crowds of sick and impaired people.

Recently she made a huge mistake. A well-known Dutch television personality, Sylvia Millecam, was diagnosed with breast cancer. Ms. Millecam, not being overly intelligent, wanted to have nothing to do with regular doctors. The tumor was relatively small and very well treatable with a large chance of success, as is common in the treating of "mammacarcinome," today. Ms. Millecam, however, turned to the "alternative circuit."

I quote from the report of the Dutch Healthcare Inspector:

Important in this is, that from the ranks of the alternative community, the diagnosis of breast cancer was contraindicated, and the patient was told she could be cured with unproven methods of treatment.

Joke Damman [Jomanda] was one of these people. She told Millecam it was a bacteria, and not breast cancer at all. But there were others involved, such as Mr. Broekhuyse, an MD and "homeopath." Dr. Rigo van der Meer, psychiatrist, commented:

Ms. Millecam has fallen into the hands of this man [Broekhuyse] who because of his medical background thinks he knows exactly what the problem is. He treats people with cancer with homeopathic drinks and electromagnetic waves and, when they are dying, sends them to a hospital where doctors can do no more than inject morphine to ease the poor soul's demise.

These two people, Damman and Broekhuyse, along with a few others, have to appear in a Dutch court of law on manslaughter charges. The trial will probably begin this fall. A Dutch medical doctor ? I don't remember his name ? said:

Joke Damman can easily plead insanity because that's what she is: insane.

It just goes to show how important your work is, sir. These people are possibly life threatening to others. Maybe it's needless to say, but Ms. Millecam died in agony. She was 45 years old.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth



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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #4102275 - 04/27/05 12:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I remember quite a few years ago I watched a program about homeopathy applied to dairy cattle. A farmer in Britain separated his cattle into groups treated with homeopathy, no treatment and antibiotics to prevent infections of the udders. The homeopathic group had less infections than the untreated group, but more than those treated with constant antibiotics. However, constantly dosing an animal with antibiotics is more expensive and has other trade-offs as well.

The farmer found a cost effective means with less side effects to care for his cattle. Unwilling to open their minds to the possibilities of the unconventional which did not fit with their scientific dogma, the detractors blamed some unknown agent or the behavior of the farmer for the positive results.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: looner2]
    #4102280 - 04/27/05 12:25 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What are the backgrounds of those doctors what schools did they study at? Just because they say they are homepaths doesn't mean they actually or it doesn't mean they practice it properly.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: barfightlard]
    #4102308 - 04/27/05 12:34 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Ok I hear this story all the time. Customer comes in and says he wants remedy for X. I see them 2 days later and am told the story of how said remedy cured X within minutes, hours, or days.

A month later they forgot this conversation and are complaining about X again.

This happens, not just occasionally but all the time.

Ok now about your book. Could you please post the evidence and proofs that this actually happened and is not just what this author said happened. I hear these stories all the time about this happened and that happened. But I never see the studies or proofs.

I have tried homeopathy lots myself and on my two dogs. Nothing has ever happened. When you take codine, or aspirin. Something happens. It's not just homeopathy. My industry is riddled with snake oil salesmen. People let it happen because they want the quick fix miricle. The Natural foods industry is in decline and it's because of all the $$$, to be made. Greed wins out once again.

I spend alot of time doing research on products. Most don't work or are overblown and don't give the benifit claimed. Most of my customers just want placebo fixes and get angry when I tell them my opinions. I only tell them if they ask.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: Icelander]
    #4102340 - 04/27/05 12:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Homepathy has alot more too it than saying this is my problem and the doctor right away saying take this medicine,at least not if it's practised correctly.. The homeopath has to sit down with you and go over your problems, whats happening to you mentally and physically, even the little things in your life, because they can all attribute to your problem. Just say two people are experiencing headaches, they might not both need the same remedy.

The evidence and proofs are only his word. Apparntly he took this case infront of 300 other homepaths. Also a Polish surgeon was present during the next meeting and said himself that he's amputated hundreds of like cases before. Geroge Vithoulkas states "Furthermor, the case and it's progress has been recorded on video and is availible to any medical authority that might be intrested."


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (04/27/05 12:43 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 11,732
Re: Homeopathy [Re: Icelander]
    #4102363 - 04/27/05 12:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Seriosuly, what kind of "school" does one need to attend to become a "homeopathic doctor"? Hogwarts is the only one I've heard of.

The bottom line is that homeopathy cannot stand the rigors of scientific theory. That is, it is not reproducible.

Of course there are stories of spontaneous recovery in a lot of aspects of the health care system. The bottom is this: If Dr. Witchcraft could cure all these ailments....there wouldn't be any doubt, or debate on the subject.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
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Re: Homeopathy [Re: badchad]
    #4102367 - 04/27/05 12:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what school specificly, but they doo exsist and the Doctors who go there go between 4 and 6 years.

No, the bottoms line is scientific community can't stand the that they can't explain how homeopathy works, and yes, it does work.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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