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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5117908 - 12/29/05 07:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Diploid:"You can't prove a negative. Philosophy 101. Check it out, then get back to me."
So I can't prove, that if I am sitting in my car and push the starter-button, my engine won't start up ?
I don't think so...


Hint: read the refined statement on proving a negative in my post.

Besides, your car example is not relevant. I was asked for a study that proves homeopathy does not work. It is not possible to prove that.

As long as homeopathy works in a different matter than classical medicine (equal with equal), the mechanisms how it works have not been found out, yet.

I'd buy your explanation except that IT DOES NOT WORK. How can something that doesn't work have a mechanism of action?

Or haven't you been following the slew of studies brought up in this thread showing only inconclusive or negative results but not one single conclusive positive?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Posts: 9,954
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117913 - 12/29/05 07:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

A little off-topic, but:

You can't prove a negative.

Blanking out the fact that you are proving a negative? That statement is not only fallacious, it is also self-refuting.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5117914 - 12/29/05 07:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can't prove contingent negative existentials.

Happy now?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117930 - 12/29/05 07:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How can something that doesn't work have a mechanism of action?

Better still, how can a Homeopathic School 'teach' something of which the mechanism is not known; and with no available data or model on which to prescribe anything for a potential future patient? Is the school curriculum merely how to get a business license, set up an office and market one's "skills" to the gullible masses?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117935 - 12/29/05 07:38 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Sure you can prove if something does not work.
If there are 'no' effects by using homeopathics, this clearly shows up...
BUT there are reported effects (I thought, even studies) that it works, compared to a placebo.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117938 - 12/29/05 07:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Happy now?

:noway: My happiness is contingent on your accordance with my own views and opinions. :tongue:

Honestly though, I would like an example of this [rephrased] philisophical statement.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5117943 - 12/29/05 07:43 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would like an example of this [rephrased] philisophical statement.

You cannot prove that a thing that can exist does not exist anywhere.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (12/29/05 09:10 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5117959 - 12/29/05 07:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If there are 'no' effects by using homeopathics, this clearly shows up...

That only proves that in that particular study, homeopathy didn't work. It says nothing about the success or failure of the next future study and the one after that.

Simpler example: if I look in my closet and don't find a Flying Spaghetti Monster, I've proved only that there aren't any in my closet; there may be one in yours.

However, after searching high and low all my life for FSMs and finding no hint they exist, I'm well justified in coming to the conclusion (pending some new discovery of FSM somewhere) that they in fact almost certainly don't exist.

BUT there are reported effects (I thought, even studies) that it works, compared to a placebo.

:foreheadslap:

Have you not read anything I've been pointing out in this thread. EVERY SINGLE STUDY, REPEAT: EVERY SINGLE STUDY has been either inconclusive or negative for efficacy.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Last seen: 1 year, 15 days
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5117970 - 12/29/05 07:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Have you not read anything I've been pointing out in this thread. EVERY SINGLE STUDY, REPEAT: EVERY SINGLE STUDY has been either inconclusive or negative for efficacy.
I am not sure, because you are often too quick with you assumptions (read pre-assumptious), so tending to overlook important details...
Perhaps I will reread or search something...
Hard work with you :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5118007 - 12/29/05 08:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You cannot prove that a thing does not exist anywhere.

How come I can't prove that an existent in the form of a fluffy, purring, pointy-eared creature that we refer to as a "cat" in the English language does not exist in this very room that I am currently in, right this moment?




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5118011 - 12/29/05 08:11 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Hard work with you

Yep. That's as it should be. I never accept anything I haven't scrutinized because, if it's true, it will bear the scrutiny easily.

So, if you find something praising homeopathy, don't even bother showing me unless the study was done double-blind and peer-reviewed by independent scientists. If you find it, I'll sit up and listen with an open mind; anything less and we're right back where we started.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5118022 - 12/29/05 08:16 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

How come I can't prove that an existent in the form of a fluffy, purring, pointy-eared creature that we refer to as a "cat" in the English language does not exist in this very room that I am currently in, right this moment?

You CAN prove that by searching the entire room, but that's a different proof.

A specific case of proving a contingent negative existential is proving there are no Spaghetti Monsters anywhere. To do that, you'd have to search your entire room, then move on to searching the entire universe.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5118028 - 12/29/05 08:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5118032 - 12/29/05 08:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5118072 - 12/29/05 08:44 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

LOLOL Great site. I know of a similar one, a bit darker and twisted: http://www.mycathatesyou.com



"Despite his best efforts, Ash just can't seem to keep his owner down."



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5118096 - 12/29/05 09:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

"So, if you find something praising homeopathy, don't even bother showing me unless the study was done double-blind and peer-reviewed by independent scientists"
Hehe, I hope it is not a must to be proven all over the universe. Let's say +/-20km from earth surface ?
Oh, and the time frame...
Is +0 to 500.000 years allright ?
:lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #5118248 - 12/29/05 10:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Selling nutritional supplements for a living includes homeopathics. I get a laugh at all the people spending their hard dollars for soft science. :grin: But it makes them happy and I never push it so I feel ok. I actually think a lot of the supps I sell are bullshit hype. What's a poor boy to do. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Swami]
    #5118365 - 12/29/05 11:53 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Many nutritional supplements work. Vitamins, antioxidants, and many herbs such as ginger and St. Johns Wort have good uses in personal health care, but I agree that homeopathy is BS. I read a book on it once and tried it...it doesn't do shit.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Diploid]
    #5118407 - 12/29/05 12:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So then..here we go

Let's begin with this:
source:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/aug/27/homeopathy.htm
on an artikel from: British Medical Journal August 19, 2000;321:471-476.


"Homeopathy Proves Effective In Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study

Contrary to the overwhelming belief of the mainstream medical establishment, results from a recent series of trials suggest that homeopathy is more effective than an inactive pill (placebo) in treating certain ills.

Researchers studied 51 patients with perennial hay fever. Twenty-four of the study subjects received daily homeopathy and 27 received a daily placebo treatment during the 4-week study period.

The study was performed to the highest standards of scientific research, being double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled.

All of the subjects kept a diary in which they recorded twice daily their nasal air flow measurements and symptoms such as sneezing, runny nose, and eye and chest symptoms.

Patients who received homeopathy had a 28% improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3% improvement.
In comments to Reuters Health, study author Dr. David Reilly of the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital states "There are two ways of interpreting the fact that four trials in a row have produced positive results," Either homeopathy works, in which case "we need to explore the clinical potential and the scientific challenges, (or) homeopathy does not work (and) the clinical trial is proving an unreliable tool capable of worrying false positive results."

In an accompanying editorial, Tim Lancaster of the Oxford Institute of Health Sciences and Andrew Vickers of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, acknowledge that the methods employed by Dr. Reilly and his colleagues "were rigorous and it is unlikely that their results arose from methodological bias."

They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy."


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: The total nonsense of Homeopathy [Re: Icelander]
    #5118410 - 12/29/05 12:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

My mother is a big believer in homeopathy, and all other hyped-up magic pills and potions which will save her from having to make any real changes in her lifestyle.  :tongue:

She hates it when I say that her homeopathic medicines won't work on me since I don't believe in them.  :grin:  "No placebo effect without belief."


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