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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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can happiness exist without depression?
    #5003155 -

i saw someone ask this in another thread and i think the answer must be yes. throughout my childhood i was happy. sure i had some negative and scary experiences but overall i was quite happy and never experienced any depression until i reached the age of 18. if happiness could not exist without depression, how could i possibly have known happiness before i ever experienced depression? what if i had been hit by a bus on my 18th birthday and thus never experienced the depression i later went through, would that somehow take away from the happiness i had as child? i don't see why. i believe happiness is our natural state and there is no reason why one cannot remain happy thoughout their life (and there people who remain consitently happy and never display the symptoms of depression, just as there are people who are consistently depressed and never report feeling happy). depression is a signal that tells you when something is isn't right and not a necessary payment for happiness. i don't really see how the idea that they are polar oppisites makes sense. wouldn't it then be impossible to have more of one then the other (in which case seeking happiness would be futile because it would only be offset by the inevitable depression which it depended upon for its very existance) ? our experience certainly tells that some people have more of one than the other.

i think perhaps the reason people think happiness is relative is because the happiness gained from the world is relative (this is why rich people are not necessarily happier than poor people). pleasure and pain are linked to eachother, however, being able to enjoy life in all its aspects is not merely relative enjoyment. your thoughts?

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5003190 -

Both happiness and depression have unique causes. As such, they can occur in consciousness without depending on each other. The reason we tend to think happiness and depression are interrelated, that "the sweet aint sweet without the sour", is that we mistakenly perceive the experience of temporary elation which comes from the absence of major problems, our ignorance to those problems, or in the satisfaction of certain pleasures, as being true happiness. In reality happiness is a kind of contentment that does not depend on external circumstances such as these.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Ped]
    #5003203 -

that's exactly what my experiences seem to suggest Ped (it's what i was trying to explain).

Edited by Deviate (12/01/05 06:42 PM)

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5003415 -

i said that. but really i mean that its unfair to just ask yourself constantly "why am i depressed right now" unless you also ask yourself while you are happy "why am i happy right now"


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5003633 -

Happiness, while free, is not easy. It takes a little work. Momentary depression is normal, but chronic depression indicates a change in world view/life style is needed. Happiness is acheivable with the proper guidance. I read a good book on this lately. Here is a link to the .pdf it is very short and it is free.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/lamayeshe/pssm/pssm.pdf
It is Buddhist oriented, but there is something there for everyone.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5003673 -

good topic!

& yes..

:smile:


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5005565 -

I am on that side too, that happiness should be our 'neutral' calibration in life. At least, our planet earth seems to suppose that to me. We have no need for fright about 'the nature', as we are intellectually in supreme position of it and can theoretically manage every problem that arises out of it.
So risen contentment, where the possibilities of life unfold, is happiness for me and the 'should be standard state' of every human to advance from.
Depression, fright and the most 'negative' emotional impulses point to human made problems (or problems risen from non-doing), which brought natural happiness and contentment out of balance.
So, striving for happiness is something which can bring you back to normal-mode, but that doesn't work with ignorance. Only the salvation of problems can lead to real bliss, which is risen happiness. All ignorance herein is an emergency mechanism of our concerned minds, to protect some stable normal happiness-mode. We have to break ignorance more often to reach real bliss...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5005773 -

The basic assertion of many meditative traditions is that happiness or even limitless bliss is our natural state and that our ordinary drab existence, where happiness and depression come and go is a symptom of a polluted mind.

In those philosophies, you first have to let all confusing thoughts of daily existence come to rest and then actively remove the mental poisons from your system to get back to the pure state of happiness.

I like that idea a lot.


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"You should view the world as a conspiracy run by a very closely-knit group of nearly omnipotent people, and you should think of that group as yourself and your friends."

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5007260 -

Both depression and happiness are based on personal choice.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008094 -

"Both depression and happiness are based on personal choice. "

^truth^

anyways/


my understanding has always been that opposites arent really seperate at all, there just opposite ends of a spectrum...

in the metaphysical sense, id say no, happiness cant exist without sadness. THats how a dualistic universe works

"everything gives rise to its opposite"

lao tzu

"when one knows the beautifull, ugliness is at once defined"

lao tzu


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Deviate]
    #5008551 -

if a poor man gets suddenly rich, he will appreciate that wealth more than the rich man who's had it all his life.

there is no wealth without poverty.
value depends on contrast. that includes subjective value, like joy/sadness.

yet joy can exist without sadness, happiness without depression.

i think that's because joy and sadness are in a sense, the means of valuation itself, not what is valued.

but when a person values happiness as an end itself, i think such a person would appreciate happiness that much more, the more they had experienced depression.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5009056 -

Both depression and happiness are based on personal choice.
As long as you live alone in pure nature. that may be right, as there is no lie to oppose.
But in society, does a choice to 'let happen' a conscious threat of somebody out of egoism (what is the rule), just to keep ones happiness can be healthy ? I think you don't mean that.
Perhaps you mean 'See a threat happily, for you opportunity towards a challenge' ? :laugh:
I can agree with this, but therefore you first have to transform the primarily negative feelings of a threat, into something secondary positive.
So we have primary emotional reaction and the secondary one, which is a human made transformation of the first.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #5009095 -

crunchytoast said:
if a poor man gets suddenly rich, he will appreciate that wealth more than the rich man who's had it all his life.

there is no wealth without poverty.
value depends on contrast.  that includes subjective value, like joy/sadness.

yet joy can exist without sadness, happiness without depression.

i think that's because joy and sadness are in a sense, the means of valuation itself, not what is valued.

but when a person values happiness as an end itself, i think such a person would appreciate happiness that much more, the more they had experienced depression.


:thumbup:
Although it seems reasonable that a person could be happy all the time, things start to lose their meanings as contrasts melt. How would you even know that you're happy if you had nothing to compare it with?

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5009293 -

Quote:
if a poor man gets suddenly rich, he will appreciate that wealth more than the rich man who's had it all his life.


not sure I agree. Someone who has been without money their entire lives, then say, win the lottery, will not have experience dealing with large amounts of money, so although they might appreciate it more, that doesn't mean they will use it wisely.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: kotik]
    #5009439 -

Quote:
not sure I agree.


sounds like you do. you're pointing out an additional fact, that the poor man won't use the wealth wisely, although it sounds like you agree that he'll appreciate it more.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5009543 -

"in the metaphysical sense, id say no, happiness cant exist without sadness. THats how a dualistic universe works"

I would offer a bit of a correction here. Happiness can't exist without the POSSIBILITY of sadness. Just because a quality defines it's opposite does not make the occurance of that opposite obligatory.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5009596 -

something good makes you happy
something bad makes you sad
who decides whats good and bad?

thanks for the link Hue, great stuff in there!

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: fresh313]
    #5010657 -

I agree : I personally think that the only way depression exists is within the absence of happiness, and happiness can only exist with depression being absent aswell. I am a chronically depressed person and find happiness to be rare and short-lived, but during those occasions depression seems ... not applicable.


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"A penny spent is a penny earned by someone else."

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5011312 -

"I would offer a bit of a correction here. Happiness can't exist without the POSSIBILITY of sadness. Just because a quality defines it's opposite does not make the occurance of that opposite obligatory. "

good point. i agree.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: can happiness exist without depression? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7202039 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Happiness, while free, is not easy. It takes a little work. Momentary depression is normal, but chronic depression indicates a change in world view/life style is needed. Happiness is acheivable with the proper guidance. I read a good book on this lately. Here is a link to the .pdf it is very short and it is free.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/lamayeshe/pssm/pssm.pdf
It is Buddhist oriented, but there is something there for everyone.


I would not likely have found this text if it were not for you posting the link here. Thankyou, it has been very beneficial to me.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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