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Re: Bias bans [Re: shirley knott]
    #5021896 -

Quote:
this is really getting pathetic. you've made no friends with this thread, cervantes, but lost plenty. nobody is gonna come up with a solution you like, ever. EVER. that's life. THAT'S LIFE. this thread is like a scab that you won't allow to heal. from here on in, all your posts are just so negative, i wonder what you can possibly hope to achieve from them - you remind me of a suicide bomber, just spreading more trouble in the name of something you believe is worthwhile. please think about about either moving on, or moving on. nothing more from me.


Speak for yourself. I'm sure Cerv appreciates you wanting to be a father figure for him, telling him 'how it is' and comparing him to a murderer and all.


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Re: Bias bans [Re: shirley knott]
    #5022321 -

This thread has made Cervantes my best friend.  I personally like seeing the admins reminded that they shouldn't blindly support bad moderators.  I like seeing the mods reminded that bias bans, while they are a Shroomery way of life and institution, are not necessarily good things.  Your post has also made me think about what a tool Shirley Knott is.  That's how all of this has affected me.  :shrug:

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Burke Dennings]
    #5025229 -

Shirl gave me my first five shroom rating, and was the first to encourage me towards moderation.

I suspect Shirl intended to sound more maternal than he came across.

I further suspect my stepping down hurt Shirl's feelings, just as his last post hurt mine... as perhaps, he feels like he found me... and wanted me to leave my Moderator post, and Mods in general, cast in better light.

Well, I feel that way too.

Bygones...

:heart:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Bias bans [Re: Burke Dennings]
    #5025538 -

e-chode said:
This thread has made Cervantes my best friend.  I personally like seeing the admins reminded that they shouldn't blindly support bad moderators.  I like seeing the mods reminded that bias bans, while they are a Shroomery way of life and institution, are not necessarily good things.  Your post has also made me think about what a tool Shirley Knott is.  That's how all of this has affected me.  :shrug:


Amen.

Cervantes is the only person who has ever banned me, yet I respect him more than probably 90% of the members on this site.

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Redstorm]
    #5025626 -

I have been deliberately avoiding making any posts in this thread since what I've had to say, has already been said. However I do want to applaud e-chode for his eloquently written post which conveys quite a positive message. Indeed, it is important that people in positions of power are aware of the criticisms and concerns of the people for whom they watch over, and particularly in the case of something as subjective as bias, I do like to see these people (myself included of course) reminded that bias is something that can creep up inadvertantly and that we should make every effort to recognize it before we take any action on its behalf.

With that said, I am confident that most staff members do take these considerations, but of course our own predispositions can get the best of us at any time. Hence why it is so important that communication flows freely, and especially direct from the source. That is to say, anytime that you feel you have been mistreated, it is in the best interests of yourself and the community at large that you contact an administrator directly (preferably through use of our Support Ticket System), outlining in detail what transpired and why you feel it to be wrong. Timliness will play a big part in an effective solution, as often when time passes the facts become less clear and memories hazy, therefore making any counteraction more difficult to undertake.


--------------------

--------------------
┼ ··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙·· ┼
...╬π╥ ╥π╬...

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Re: Bias bans [Re: geokills]
    #5026554 -

Thank you for jumping back into this discussion geo.

And thank you for taking some time away from this mess, while you watched things unfold. However, you suggest later in your last post that things, such as this, should be handled in a timely fashion... it is ironic, you (as well as I) needed time away from this issue.

Since this issue is currently being discussed in, at least, three forums (public AND private), geo... is a support ticket really needed?

And aren't YOU the Admin who handles MOST of the Support tickets, geo?

Do your opinions differ when you are contacted via support ticket?

If you REALLY need a support ticket, kindly write your own. You've read this thread. You understand the issue.

When I was a Mod, and I sent you a PM'd concern, you NEVER would tell me to write a support ticket. Has something changed, with THAT system, now that I am no longer Moderating?

Geo, if you don't have copies of our private correspondence, I certainly do. We've (you and I have) been discussing this in private since I was still a Mod.

This case WAS handled just as you suggested. Via PM, support tickets and in the FEEDBACK forum (as well as in threads started by Mods and victims of the Spiritual forums) from the moment I stepped down as a Mod. Since I was in PM correspondence with you, geo, I felt a support ticket would be redundant. However Paradigm says he sent one. I saw him TELL YOU. Further reason for me to feel another support ticket would be redundant.

I even offered to use private channels (once again) in this very thread. Yet, I was asked, despite my concerns, by Thor, for more info. Do you ever wonder WHY I didn't want to list details in Public, geo? Because I DON'T LIKE being PUSHED AROUND by my friends on The Staff. In light of this thread, and Shirl's words, can you BLAME ME?

The thing which makes this case unique, is it is about something apparently very hard for the Staff to spot... THEIR OWN BIAS.

And, without a PUBLIC forum to report my FEEDBACK (like here, in the FEEDBACK Forum) I fear, my points would've fallen on deaf ears. Seems that way to me, at least from my previous PRIVATE discussions about this matter with YOU and others.

A support ticket would only serve one purpose: It would keep the public from reading my thoughts on this issue... and having seen the Public's reaction to your (alleged) bias, I don't blame you for WANTING TO HIDE this issue and let it die a quiet death... if THAT really is your motivating force.

Also, this issue INVOLVES the Public, for it is the Public, not The Staff, who was mistreated. The Public's feedback, on this issue has been almost unanimous. I mean, Hippie3's the only regular Shroomerite in VISIBLE support of this BIAS policy cover-up, to post in this thread. Oh, and a couple Shroomerites, who I DON'T KNOW AT ALL, only popped in to say how they never liked me. :smirk:

If memory serves me, this is the ONLY thread I've made on this topic, THIS MONTH... and before that, I had only made ONE OTHER. I'm NOT flooding the place.

More than one person has been effected. We need a place, where more than one person can discuss this issue. So, I created THIS thread, in the proper forum.

To hide this discussion, geo (like you've hidden or locked so many other threads, which attempt to talk about this very issue), would be a shame. A personal, PUBLIC, apology would better suit the mood.

No offense geo, but since you are one of the Staff Members who I am accusing of banning Swami with bias, as well as PUBLICLY supporting your Mods' acts of bias. I am holding out for a more neutral perspective after ALL the Admins come to a consensus... as Thor mentioned earlier in this thread.

Besides geo, you ARE The Admin who has handled most ALL of the Administrative duties surrounding this issue... I've certainly done everything you WOULD ALLOW, to communicate my grievances and YOU, of ALL Admins, KNOW IT.

That I didn't send a BUNCH of whiny PM's to the other Admins, was an act of respect. I trusted you to use my public and private correspondence WISELY.

Didn't YOU pass the MONTHS of conversations (concerning LEGITIMATE Staff bias AND written in a TIMELY fashion) along to your Administrative partners, geo?

Thanks again for your post.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/07/05 01:06 AM)

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5027362 -

Quote:
I am tired of pointing out what rules Swami broke. Forum specific: 1) Disrespecting thread poster 2) Trolling, forum wide: 3) Going off topic 4) Becoming a drama queen.


I wonder why you and all Swami supporters seem to avoid this facts ... Anyway, you stated he is a TROLL, so why don't you accept proper action was needed ? If trolling is a bannable offense, how on earth can it be biased ? This is 1+1=2 logics not a continued rhetorical set of arguments.

MAIA

P.S.: There are two questions in my post. If you reply, please take the time to comment them first before you start the usual rhetoric ...


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5027409 -

Quote:
I have said, more than once, in THIS VERY THREAD... I BELIEVE SWAMI TROLLED YOU... the evidence was just DELETED (by Maia) which caused future DRAMA. Also, Swami should've been warned instead of banned. AND if he was to be BANNED, he SHOULD'VE been banned for 24, RATHER THAN 12 hours.


Quote:
Regarding your argument and considering the fact that i really made a couple of procedural mistakes (which you like to bump them up to the level of breaking a rule), i wonder if you are accusing me based on those errors or because you think i'm biased towards swami. You seem to mix the reasons all together and i find it painfully difficult to justify your reasoning.


Forum rules:

On banning
Quote:
A first offense for minor infractions will result in a written warning by moderator/administrator either via Private Message, or in the thread where the incident occurred. Immediate bans are often issued without warning in circumstances involving SPAM, explicitly illegal activity, excessive harassment, or any behavior deemed malicious.


Please memorize the next one ..
On harassment & respect
Quote:
If you cannot behave in a respectful manner, keep your words to yourself. Failure to comply will result in administrative action at the sole discretion of the staff.


On editing
Quote:
Posts will be edited if the material in them violates any general site or specific forum policy, yet resides within a developed thread of considerable value. Edited posts will be accompanied by explanation of the action in the post itself, and via private message if further explanation is deemed necessary.


You said he was trolling, yet you write in CAPITAL letters "DELETED", "the evidence was DELETED", as if it was a monstrous action perpetrated by myself. So is that thread the reason why you consider Swami a troll or not ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5028155 -

> Since this issue is currently being discussed in, at least, three
> forums (public AND private), geo... is a support ticket really needed?

Of course not, because I have already made my decision regarding matters surrounding your specific issue. This decision included (but was not limited to):
  • Revising the new forum guidelines and description
  • Removing certain moderators from certain forums to ease the perceived "control" over the S&P section of this website that certain members were concerned about
  • Revising the Administrative Rules & Guidelines to clarify certain policies
  • Sending a mass PM to related moderators regarding what I felt was inappropriate behavior and how future matters ought to be handled
  • Encouraging the creation, brainstorming, and implementation of our new Ban-O-Matic disciplinary record and point based system.


If you are trying to get me to overturn past bans, you may as well save your breath since I do not feel that anymore reactionary action is necessary at this time. As previously stated in one of your other threads, I am most concerned with future staff action and ensuring that we learn from mistakes we may have made. It seems that you have a really hard time letting go of this matter until you get your way, namely (from my understanding) an apology as well as a removal of Swami's MR&P forum ban. Well you've certainly received the former, but as for the latter I will not remove Swami's forum ban at this time due to his consistent ideologically confrontational behavior, which is precisely the type of behavior the MR&P forum was created in order to avoid! I will go further to note that he was banned for just reasons, based upon action that he took in the new forum and not speculation as to actions he would likely take. As with most inappropriate threads, his was moved to the Dump and has since been removed from the database as all threads in the Dump are after a couple weeks.



> And aren't YOU the Admin who handles MOST of the Support tickets, geo?
>Do your opinions differ when you are contacted via support ticket?


I don't believe so, I perhaps handle 20 - 40% of the tickets? Though in reality I have no idea as to the actual statistic, save to know that I see Anno and Ythan responding to tickets with much frequency. As for a different approach in responding to support tickets versus forum posts - it is not my opinion that would differ in itself, but rather the clarity of my understanding that would be different. As I've now stated many times, Support Tickets are the most effective in petitioning your case since they will not grow into such a huge mass of convoluted personal opinion, thereby allowing me to focus on the specific matter that the user has brought to light, while being able to avoid wading through so many tangents from other users that often confuse the initial matter.


> This case WAS handled just as you suggested.

You are correct. It WAS handled, and though I don't often like to take this tone - you are beating a dead horse. You should have realized by now that while you have inspired a second (and third) take at recent events, which in turn has lead to the changes I've listed above, you are not going to get everything you want. Not because of any personal intention other than the fact that I do not feel a revocation of Swami's forum ban is at all appropriate at this point in time. Perhaps in the future, but not now.


> Didn't YOU pass the MONTHS of conversations (concerning LEGITIMATE Staff
> bias AND written in a TIMELY fashion) along to your Administrative partners, geo?

As I stated to you the last time you offered to send a PM to all administrators, I advised you that you could simply request from any admin that they post your messages for the rest of the admins to review. While I'm sure I have paraphrased many of your initial comments, it was not until very recently that you specifically requested me to post certain statements for all the other admins to review, which when you asked, I certainly did. If on the other hand you are PM'ing me with concerns that I have a conviction to answer but that you did not formally request full administrative review, it is common practice for the admins to delegate responsibility to whomever is most informed and active in handling any given situation. In keeping with this trust, most of our conversations (namely the ones leading up to your specific request) were in fact not relayed word-for-word to the rest of the admins.

You really need to understand that we have taken a helluva lot of time in reviewing the situations you have brought to light, we are not ignoring you, but you also cannot honestly expect that we will agree with everything you are saying. If you do, you are engaging in an exercise of futility. I appreciate input, but when decisions have obviously been made, it is counterproductive to continue hammering your own disposition into the face of the community. You wonder why there isn't a rash of supporters for the administration's stance here - and while there may or may not in fact be people in favor of our action, I contend that most users have simply given up on following this whole mess due to its incredible repetition. In the interests of full disclosure, I should also note that nearly all of the members who have been vocalizing support for your position are members who were either directly involved with disciplinary action arising from the stated incidents, or have been banned by the administration on other occasions by which they may have felt unfairly treated. It is not wrong to feel that you have been unfairly treated, and it is not wrong to contest the action by stating your case clearly and concisely.. however, if it is painfully obvious that the administration of this website will not concede to all of your wishes, it would save all of us time and stress to accept that fact and let bygones be bygones.

I will leave this thread open for now, as perhaps it may take a turn and begin to focus on positive ideas as to how we may improve future actions - but if it continues to reiterate matters that have already been decided, do not expect it to stay active much longer.


--------------------

--------------------
┼ ··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙·· ┼
...╬π╥ ╥π╬...

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Re: Bias bans [Re: geokills]
    #5028585 -

Quote:
Removing certain moderators from certain forums to ease the perceived "control" over the S&P section of this website that certain members were concerned about


Just a quick side note about this issue. No moderator was forced to step down from any forum. When we were discussing about the split, an initial set of moderators were presented for both forums, i chose not to moderate Philosophy for the reasons presented above by geo.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Bias bans [Re: MAIA]
    #5028715 -

MAIA said:
I wonder why you and all Swami supporters seem to avoid this facts ...


I'll answer ONE (but not both) of your questions without the usual rhetoric... by saying:

Your first question is OFFENSIVE TO ME... and theresore, I choose NOT to answer your second one.

Now, let me ask YOU a question, Maia.

How DARE you suggest me, and ALL THE OTHER SHROOMERITES WHO HAVE POSTED IN THIS THREAD (other than Hippie3) are AVOIDING the facts?

From where I sit, the opposite is happening.

I have presented facts, as the UNBAISED (IME) Admins have asked for them. More facts will be presented ONLY if I am asked to present them by Thor, Seuss, Ythan, Vamp or even Anno... but Maia, you, geo, Wiccan and Trendal will get NO SUCH treatment in public, not from me. For you are the Mods and Admin who push people around (or ban them) for TELLING THE TRUTH.

I hope you can respect my feelings, and can keep your thoughts private... until at least SOME progress has been made.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Bias bans [Re: geokills]
    #5028746 -

Quote:
I will leave this thread open for now, as perhaps it may take a turn and begin to focus on positive ideas as to how we may improve future actions - but if it continues to reiterate matters that have already been decided, do not expect it to stay active much longer.




This thread is doing JUST THAT. It has focused on POSITIVE suggestions since its FIRST POST. Kindly scroll up, and review it, as well as the rest of the posts which have made positive suggestions, in this thread.

In fact geo, if you would SIMPLY advise your Staff, particularly those who's behavior I am asking the Admin to review, to keep their thoughts PRIVATE (or at least, away from THIS particular thread)... this thread would be MUCH MORE POSITIVE.

Of the accused, only Trendal has handled himself like a gentleman, in this thread. Although, I appreciate Wiccan and Shroomism's silence.

Maia and Shirl's posts, of all the posts made in THIS thread, are begging for a negative response. Trendal acted like a gentleman, and was TREATED like a gentleman.

Let the victims and the unbiased, discuss this issue in THIS THREAD, and tell The Staff to use their PRIVATE FORUMS, and PM's to have THEIR discussion.

It doesn't look good, when I am saying I was pushed around by The Staff, for you to then allow your Staff to continue pushing me around, in THE MIDDLE OF my COMPLAINT thread. In fact, from where I sit, it serves as further EVIDENCE.

This isn't rocket science, geo. I'm suggesting ways to HAVE THIS DISCUSSION, in a MORE POSITIVE MANOR.

The ONE Admin I'm accusing of bias SHOULD NOT BE the Admin to lock this thread.

Inform your other Admins that you aren't helping things, in here. Ask if someone else would handle it. Geo, I've seen what Thor, Ythan and Seuss have said about bias, and you don't sing the same tune.

Nobody needs to leave their post, they just need to apologize... in Public. All I'm asking for is an apology, a PUBLIC APOLOGY to ALL who were mistreated. MY SUGGESTION IS SO SIMPLE... AND POSITIVE.

Please don't suggest otherwise, for it makes me think you aren't reading my posts, geo. I know, it may not SEEM like a positive solution... if you are one of the people I am asking to give a public apology, for your public acts of bias.

And PLEASE geo, in the future, pass all pertinent info along to your fellow admins, I give you permission, although I shouldn't have to... it is your job.

Thanks


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/07/05 02:59 PM)

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5029054 -

Wow well, this certainly 'blew up'.. The whole idea of us admins stepping back was so we'd stop encouraging a cycle arguing that isnt serving much purpose at this point.

I agree with everything Geo has said here, and I really suggest that any 'user' that feels they have an unjust ban use the support ticket system as this kind of post is not helping anyone, in fact when it turns ugly its actually hurting.

If someone feels a ban is unjustly done on them, contact the support ticket system. If the answer is, ban stands.. Try again later, say 1 month..

My point is beating a dead horse isn't helping anyone, this started out with good intentions but has ended in a mess, yet again we are not going to continue these debates here anymore.

So I'm closing this, and you can all thank me or hate me for it.

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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5029062 -

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
As I said. DEAD HORSE.

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