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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Icelander]
    #5001157 - 12/01/05 12:53 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

When I was in said shoes, it didn't feel so unlikely.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5001785 - 12/01/05 09:46 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Again I believe that's because of who you are. You did step down remember. And now you are blacklisted and ignored it seems. Can you ignore these signs? Then good for you. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetheuser
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Icelander]
    #5001983 - 12/01/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

:goose:

Goose Love for Cervantes.


--------------------
:heart:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: theuser]
    #5002502 - 12/01/05 01:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

:smile:

Thanks for the goose!

Ice, if I am blacklisted from being talked to by the Staff, at a counter-culture website, I'll live. As long as I remain free to speek MY mind.

The Shroomery has ALWAYS fixed such issues in the past, and I have VERY little doubt this TOO will be fixed, once given enough time.

I'd just rather see it fixed BETWEEN dramatic outbursts, instead of DURING the NEXT one.

I have to wonder, if ANYONE BUT ME, started this thread, would it have recieved a Staff reply by now? Nobody knows for sure.

Some folks HAVE been blacklisted over this, those folks were BANNED. I'm not blacklisted. I simply feel like I'm being ignored. Problbly because the Staff is SICK of discussing this, and does not wish to risk starting more drama of their own.

Ignored does not = Blacklisted


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (12/01/05 01:42 PM)


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InvisibleThorA
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Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5002851 - 12/01/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The new banning system implemented by Ythan, which we call the banning tracker was created with the whole idea of it stopping or minnimizing improper bans.

The system works in such a way that a user is given a points system based on the severity of infractions, the mods have to choose the infraction, and depending on points accumulated the severity of the mod action is determined.

So if say user Joebloe has 0 points, has an infraction, the mod can then only give a PM (automated) warning, after then earning 3 points Joebloe on 2nd infraction is given 24hr ban.

The nice thing is all warnings/bans are tracked, in fact if I click on a user I can see the threads in question, the notes, the reasons, etc..

This whole concept is there for one reason, to remove as much 'personal, biased, unreasonable' bans.. Now of course we still have issues of long time members who have 'reputations' who might not get the benefit of the doubt, but the system is such that a mod can't just outright ban someone cause of the past, the must follow the steps built into the system.

I understand your thinking Cerv here, that if its not about a specific person the heated debate won't happen and you'll get somewhere.

But how can I for example do anything about an unfair situation IF I don't know what user(s) are being treated unfairly.

In fact thats why we ask that users not use this forum to bring up bans, contesting them, etc.. Since they will only turn ugly 99% of the time, and thats what our support ticket system is for, allows us to get notified of potential problems and we can examine a situation without the needless drama and 5 page threads.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Thor]
    #5003185 - 12/01/05 04:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Good to hear from you Thor. I hope this system works out. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Thor]
    #5003229 - 12/01/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you Thor.

I wanted to keep the details thin until I heard a response, and your tone.

A good overview of my personal situation is this thread here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Forum7&Number=4864857&page=1&fpart=all

Still a few specifics missing, but I was being pushed around at the time, and if I named names, I feared banishment. You may still need a few details after reading the thread, but I believe you'll get the idea, as well as the people who have been negatively effected.

With the new ban profile (thanks Ythan) all that is needed are a few apologies, to a few people who were brushed aside (or punnished) for telling the truth. And assurance the problem won't happen the same way, to the same people, in the same forum, by the same Mods.

If you have any further questions I will answer them here, or if you prefer, via PM.

Thanks again Thor.

:smile:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5004161 - 12/01/05 08:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well the admins point of view was that there were an increasing number of bans done that weren't exactly by the book and that we needed to be able to police the mods bans better.

Step 1 was the great new system Ythan put in, and step 2 is narrowing down issues and or mods that are maybe overzealous.

The problem is we can't have mods in forums using their power to push around people they don't like/agree with, the job as a mod should know by now is to abide by the site rules and apply them as fairly/evenly to ALL users.

If you take things too personally it skews your judgement, and its a big reason why admins aren't exactly jumping into discussions as we are trying to keep our distance to see the whole situation as it really is before we get emotionally invested and therefore lose some of our perspective as mediators and enforcers of the sites best interest.

Now that we have this system in place we can truly follow up on particular user issues, and then we can clearly see if certain mod(s) have been over zealous or making bad decisions in regards to warnings/bans.

It will never be perfect but at least this is a great starting point, I doubt any other website has implemented such a system and we will I'm sure stand heads above any message board in regards to being as fair and just as possible.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Thor]
    #5005383 - 12/02/05 01:36 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

WOW!

:smile:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you,

Thank you. Thank you.

Please don't ban me for saying this but:

Thank you.

Don't take it the wrong way when I say thank you.

I promise, I am only saying so, for the best of reasons... despite what you may read into my words.

:tongue:

Now, on a more serious note... I DO hope Swami's permaban from MR&tP will be lifted. As he never broke a rule, in the HISTORY of that forum. Although, if he abuses THIS forum, WA&F, in the future... I believe he has been warned WELL ENOUGH as to this forum's purpose... and should know better to contest a ban, however UNJUST, in here.

Also, on my wish list, would be a PUBLIC apology to Swami, and Paridigm who BOTH were banned w/o ever breaking a rule in the history of MR&tP... and I suspect NEITHER of them intentionally will do so in the future, either.

Finally, the MR&tP forum Mods would be WISE to say something SIMILAR to what you said in your post, Thor... as NONE of them have EVER stepped away from their stance that what they did was JUST, PROPER, and BY THE BOOK. After all this, I'll have trouble believing it, until I hear it from Maia, Shroomism, and Wiccan THEMSELVES. Besides, if they go on public record in support of your words, the particular wall of silence I felt compelled to break, as a mod, would FINALLY be lifted. :smirk:

Members of this community such as Paradigm, Swami, Icelander, Ravus (who LEFT because of this bullshit), share at least four things in common:

1. We can be a PAIN IN THE ASS when we feel mistreated.

2. We were all mistreated, unjustly, during this fiasco.

3. We love this community.

4. We are among the smartest members of this community.

When a group like us form together to voice a common complaint, we aren't OTD complaining about Hanky's millionth rightful permaban. We are people who UNDERSTAND the rules of this website.

That doesn't mean we are ALWAYS RIGHT. It simply means we shouldn't be brushed aside and mistreated for MONTHS on end... while an intelligent community WATCHES as we are mistreated, and REMEMBERS.

Anyway, you know me Thor. I like my loose ends tied. There's my list of loose ends.

But, THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart.

I can honestly say, for the first time since I have stepped down, I feel like I can support this community PASSIONATELY, once again.

You just moved a mountain, Thor... however, I stand behind my list of concerns and wishes. :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (12/02/05 01:52 AM)


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005431 - 12/02/05 01:56 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If Swami could adhere to the RULES of MR&p...then I would be really interested in hearing from him.

Otherwise...really I don't give a shit.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: MOTH]
    #5005528 - 12/02/05 02:44 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That's how I feel too.

If he ever actually BREAKS a rule (which he might do, anything's possible... I don't think he ever will... but...), treat him like ANY OTHER SHROOMERITE, instead of treating him like he's the wicked witch of the West, which I assure you, he is not.

Swami > Hanky

Why did Hanky get every chance, BY THE BOOK, and several second chances... while Swami was put on the fast track to permaban? Bias.

He wasn't treated fairly, and judging from how I responded when I was treated unfairly, I RESPECT Swami's cool head through all his mistreatment. I NEVER could've stayed as calm. I would've suicide bombed someone by now.

I've learned a LOT from all this.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



Edited by Rose (12/02/05 03:00 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005579 - 12/02/05 03:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>Why did Hanky get every chance, BY THE BOOK, and several second chances... while
>Swami was put on the fast track to permaban? Bias.

While exaggeration is a viable argumentation tool, you are exaggerating a bit too much.
Swami has been warned(be it biased or not, I can't judge) a zillion times and you know yourself that he rates highest in the number of threads about a single user in the moderator forum.

And, I don't see swami banned from the boards but only one single forum.
Hanky is banned from ALL of the boards!


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InvisibleGnuBobo
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Anno]
    #5005601 - 12/02/05 03:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Hanky is banned from ALL of the boards!




And, against said state of affairs, I must cry out, "FOR SHAAAAAAME!"

Hanky is a quality contributor.  Swami sounds more like a broken record bitch that targets a specific forum to push an ideology. 

Hanky had no ideology, other than free speech. 

It's really great that the admins have permabanned a knowledgeable, helpful member for shit that is now openly accepted in OTD.  I can go make three posts, right now, in OTD, and that would constitute the same rationale for hanky's banning. 

I'm sorry, folks.  This reeks more of vendetta than adhering to immutable "standards." 

Bad call, folks.  Bad call, indeed.  I can't say I like.  Don't like it at all. 

I can only dream the admins here might see the nonsense here.

It's rather like putting a japanese family in the internment camps in America during WWII.  And then saying, "HEY!  You're Japanese!  You can hook me up with some hot electronics, let's sign a trade agreement!"

Shifting standards, like the dunes over the mouth of the Sarlacc: All's fair game, it just depends when the pit opens up and swallows users. 

BAD CALL, folks.  BAD CALL. :sad:


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Bias bans [Re: GnuBobo]
    #5005633 - 12/02/05 04:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

GnuBobo said:
It's rather like putting a japanese family in the internment camps in America during WWII





See post above.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005639 - 12/02/05 04:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you for your post, Anno.

For it is the first in months to actually address the ROOT bans, which started this whole drama. And you used very few words. You are a posting ninja.

FINALLY, I get to make some points I've been saving for a LONG time.

As for Swami's (first and official) warning... it came LAST holiday season. When he was warned and banned for breaking NO RULES. The reason you can find no proof of him breaking any rules at that time, is because no rules were broken.

While I can no longer search the Mod Forum, a simple search of the PUBLIC forum shows THIS to be the GENESIS of Swami's seemingly eternal public drama.

Search, I dare you.

While you may not remember, your posts in the Mod Forum, at THAT time, were AGAINST any action UNTIL a VISIBLE rule was broken, and before that ever happened... Swami had been banned for 14 days. Remember, Anno, Trendal started the thread, asking if he could ban Swami for being annoying?

Upon return, Swami was banned again for 12 hours, because he contested his ban in WA&F by someone who DIDN'T MODERATE WA&F. During the ban, Swami made a puppet which was quickly discovered. His 2nd bogus ban was extended to 30 days, after his puppet was discovered.

Swami served his time, came back, and posted as usual.

A search will show NO PUBLIC SWAMA DURING THIS TIME.

Until Shroomism PUBLICLY called Swami an asshole. Then in private, asked to have Swami banned. Ironic.

Search for Shroomism saying, "Asshole".

In the Mod forum however, when Shroomism asked to have Swami banned... The Staff, still scarred from the previous holiday Swam... immediately supported Shroomism's suggestion to BAN Swami. Until Annom and I PRIVATELY, and in my case, PUBLICLY, reminded EVERYONE that Shroomism, a MOD, FLAMED SWAMI in PUBLIC... FIRST!

Drama averted.

A couple months later, Trendal makes a thread... asking for titles for a dream book or something. And Swami is an asshole (allegedly) in the thread... just like Shroomism suggested he was a few months earlier. Although trendal had NO PROBLEM with Swami's posts, Maia, a Mod of the Forum, banned Swami for TROLLING.

In the Mod forum, EVERYBODY REJOICED. Swami was banned!

However...

Maia made a couple SMALL mistakes.

First, he deleted Swamis offending posts, leaving NO EVIDENCE (which caused quite a bit of drama) also, he failed to warn Swami... which, technically... if you've EVER been warned... it stands forever... but Swami's warning was treated as bogus in the public... so Swami had no reason to believe his warning a year ago was legit. Once his 45 day sentence was served... WAY TOO LONG, he assumed the warning would be lifted. He served WAY MORE TIME than the crime.

Also, keep in mind, Trendal, the guy Swami "Trolled" was the guy who had him banned for 45 days for breaking NO RULE, and eventually making a puppet... so from where I sit, I'd cut Swami a bit of slack. Trendal did begin the process to take The Shroomery away from Swami for 10% of this entire year.

But I digress...

Maia banned Swami.

Maia then made a thread asking to have Swami permabanned, or something. I privately objected. He should be treated fairly.

I believe Swami DID troll Trendal, although the posts were deleted. But he should not be banned longer than ANY other first time offender. And, he should've been warned. Even if he HAD been warned in the past, he should've been warned again, and you know it Anno.

However, once again, The Staff, still hurting from holiday Swama... which, Anno, please keep in mind, THE PUBLIC, INCLUDING SWAMI NEVER SAW.... started calling for a longer ban.

Like the day after Swami returned... he was banned again for something FRIGHTENING. Posting with the WRONG INTENTIONS. The Mods could now determine WHY people were making posts, and bann accordingly. THEY COULD NOW READ MINDS.

Paradigm was banned for posting with the wrong intentions.

I eventually, had a thread moved for posting with the wrong intentions.

Mind reading Mods.

Not being a MIND READING MOD, I posted my skepticism in public... and was given grief by my fellow Moderators. I had broken the code of silence.

After a couple of days of TRYING TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION, but instead being questioned ad nauseum about breaking the code, I stepped down so I COULD BE HONEST to the public. They deserved it.

As a Mod, it was made clear, I could not be HONEST TO THE PUBLIC, even though THE POPULAR STAFF MOVEMENT was to ban with Bias... something which is TOTALLY against the TOS, except for the "We can ban whoever we want to" clause.

This is when Swami's ban was extended, and I started speaking out in public.

Swami was banned a couple more times, for breaking NO rule... during this time... but for continuity, I'll skimp on details. I covered the disputable onnes... the ones I'm glossing over were "Mind readings" rather than bans.

The Mods who were biased against Swami (Anno, they've said so publicly, at least Shroomism, Wiccan, Maia, and geo have... again a simple search...) took my public statements to be attacks. They were NOT. I was simply continuing the discussion... but WITHOUT THE MODERATOR FORUM, I couldn't see what the Staff was DOING, and NOBODY on The Staff WAS TALKING about what was being done.

So, I yelled LOUDER than I would as a Mod.

I had NO OTHER WAY OF KNOWING I WOULD BE HEARD. I wasn't trolling, I was continuing a discussion, with people who wouldn't talk to me, after I stepped down.

The rest is listed in the link I provided in a previous post.

As for exaggerating, I admit I have used bombastic terms, but it is relative to the amount of feedback I have received.

Keep in mind, a few hours ago was the FIRST TIME I SAW AN ADMIN post some good news, rather than threats, in MONTHS!

So in summary, Swami has had MORE POSTS MADE ABOUT HIM IN THE MOD FORUM THAN ANYONE.

But the PUBLIC does not feel the SAME WAY about RULE ABIDING Swami, than The Staff.

It takes some time, but simple research will show that this mountain WAS once, less than a year ago, a molehill.

The Staff is annoyed with Swami SIMPLY because they have dealt with him SO MUCH this past year. That doesn't change the fact that he was labeled a WITCH from day one... and I was the only one that noticed. The evidence is still there, look and you shall see.

Mushroom hunters and cultivators shouldn't HAVE TO DEAL WITH SWAMI. The Mods of the Spiritual Forum SHOULD.


Yet ALL year, NOBODY HAS BANNED Swami WITHOUT STARTING THE DRAMA IN THE MOD FORUM... FIRST!

Again, search is your friend.

Really, Swami has not EVER been banned (at least until I stepped down) WITHOUT a Mod making a thread about it in The Mod Forum.

NEVER has Swami been banned for a CLEAR CUT RULE... OR MODS WOULDN'T NEED TO MAKE THREADS IN THE MOD FORUM ABOUT WHY THEY BANNED HIM.

However, this simply BOTHERS the Mods of the Cultivation and Hunting Forums. They don't CARE. They are SICK of Swami.

But it is NOT Swami's fault. It is The Staff's fault... for mistreating this long term member, than BLAMING HIM for RIGHTFULLY complaining.

THERE IS NOT A PERSON AMONG THE STAFF WHO CAN SAY WHAT I JUST DID.

Why?

Because The Staff has YET TO ADMIT they shouldn't have banned Swami AND Paradigm for breaking NO RULES.

If they said what I just did, they'd break the SAME code of silence I broke as a Mod.

However a simple search will show you that perhaps I'm NOT exaggerating as much about Swami, and his bans, as THE REST OF THE STAFF has... this last year.

:wink:

Long post, I hope you feel I addressed your points, even though I didn't exactly agree.

Yeah, it is just one forum... but that's the problem. Read that forum's rules. Then read the victim's collective posts in said forum. Do your own math. It won't take long.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005691 - 12/02/05 05:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Holy crap that's a long'un. :popcorn:


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005747 - 12/02/05 06:45 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


4. We are among the smartest members of this community.




not to forget being the most
modest and humble as well.
:cool:


--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Hippie3]
    #5005855 - 12/02/05 07:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hahaha!  :thumbup:


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InvisibleYoung_but_cool
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Hippie3]
    #5005878 - 12/02/05 07:59 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Good call.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Rose]
    #5005997 - 12/02/05 09:07 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'd really rather not get into this discussion, but as you seem to like speaking my mind for me, Cervantes, I'll have to :thumbdown:

Although trendal had NO PROBLEM with Swami's posts

I certainly did have a problem with his posts. If you read my posts in the thread in question, I think it's rather blatantly obvious. However I wasn't a moderator of the forum, so I couldn't do anything. I had to wait for a S&P mod to come along and handle it.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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