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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: infinitedot]
    #4961302 - 11/20/05 09:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting.

You know, I don't know very much about MAO-As. But apparently: "MAO-A mainly breaks down the neurochemicals serotonin and norepinephrine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAO-A

Is that... safe? What kind of changes could that lead to?


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Invisibleinfinitedot
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: infinitedot]
    #4961313 - 11/20/05 09:11 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"There are also two types of MAO: MAO-A and MAO-B. MAO
inhibitors can inhibit only one of the above, or can inhibit
both. MAO-A works on serotonin and norepinephrine and is the
only type of MAO involved in antidepressant effects. MAO-B
inhibits other amines found in the brain, notably dopamine and
phenylethylamine. Agents that inhibit only MAO-A have far less
potential for causing a hypertensive crisis than agents that
inhibit both MAO-A and MAO-B. [24]

The MAOI in crude St. John's wort appears to be of the more
dangerous, irreversible form and inhibits both MAO-A and
MAO-B in vivo (in living organisms). [1,12] It appears to be
weak but people have varying sensitivity to MAOIs due to
individual quirks of body chemistry."

http://www.adbiotk.com/wort.html

St. John's wort + mushrooms has to work.


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Invisibleinfinitedot
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4961334 - 11/20/05 09:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Interesting.

You know, I don't know very much about MAO-As. But apparently: "MAO-A mainly breaks down the neurochemicals serotonin and norepinephrine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAO-A

Is that... safe? What kind of changes could that lead to?




Exactly as it says, let's keep it handy for others who want to check what we are talking about too:

"MAO-A is an abbreviation for 'monoamine oxidase A'. There are 2 varieties of monoamine oxidase, which are MAO-A and MAO-B. MAO-A mainly breaks down the neurochemicals serotonin and norepinephrine, whereas MAO-B mainly breaks down the neurochemicals dopamine and phenylethylamine."

They act within the brain to increase the amount of the neurotransmitter, serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT), in the synaptic gap by inhibiting its reuptake.

To cut a long story short, psychedelics + MAOI's = stronger effects.


Edited by infinitedot (11/20/05 09:16 PM)


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: infinitedot]
    #4961353 - 11/20/05 09:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I know that they cause twice the effect.

But is it worth it? Does your brain just go back to normal after? Is it alright to have these imbalances in chemicals that your brain needs?

Quote:

Tyramine is an amino acid which is normally metabolized by MAO in the
gut. After taking tranylcypromine or phenelzine (but not, apparently,
moclobemide) this MAO is inhibited and any dietary Tyramine will not be
metabolized and will cause an increase in tyramine levels in blood. This
is bad due to tyramine's effect on norepinephrine and leads to a
hypertensive crisis. Blood pressure goes up to 180+ over something,
heartbeat goes to well over 100 bpm, and people who suffer one of these
typically report getting the most painful headache of their lives. Sometimes
a Ca-blocker like nifedipine is prescribed for the user of the MAOI to
take to combat this effect should it occur.




And what about this business with not being able to consume tyramine without going into hypertensive crisis? It sounds like you really have to watch what you eat around the time of taking MAOIs.


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Invisibleinfinitedot
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4961352 - 11/20/05 09:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Is that... safe? What kind of changes could that lead to?




Good question for anybody who is willing to safely and responsibly consider this. Read on:

"SSRIs are frequently prescribed for anxiety disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and eating disorders. Though not specifically indicated by the manufacturers, they are also sometimes prescribed to treat irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Additionally, SSRIs have been found to be effective in treating premature ejaculation in up to 60% of men.

SSRIs are not addictive in the strict sense of the word (i.e. animals given free access to the drug do not actively seek it out and do not seek to increase the dose), but suddenly discontinuing their use is known to produce both somatic and psychological withdrawal symptoms, a phenomenon known as "SSRI discontinuation syndrome" (Tamam & Ozpoyraz, 2002). Compared to the withdrawal symptoms of such drugs as opiates, alcohol, or cocaine, these are slight, although the prescribing labels acknowledge the possibility of "intolerable" discontinuation reactions."

Basically, you wouldn't get "hooked" on MAOIs just with a random trips on them every now and then. But there's a chance of developing symptons on a continued use.

So that everyone understands a bit better, the most popular of these MAOIs is Prozac.


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: infinitedot]
    #4961361 - 11/20/05 09:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

infinitedot said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Is that... safe? What kind of changes could that lead to?




Good question for anybody who is willing to safely and responsibly consider this. Read on:

"SSRIs are frequently prescribed for anxiety disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and eating disorders. Though not specifically indicated by the manufacturers, they are also sometimes prescribed to treat irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). Additionally, SSRIs have been found to be effective in treating premature ejaculation in up to 60% of men.

SSRIs are not addictive in the strict sense of the word (i.e. animals given free access to the drug do not actively seek it out and do not seek to increase the dose), but suddenly discontinuing their use is known to produce both somatic and psychological withdrawal symptoms, a phenomenon known as "SSRI discontinuation syndrome" (Tamam & Ozpoyraz, 2002). Compared to the withdrawal symptoms of such drugs as opiates, alcohol, or cocaine, these are slight, although the prescribing labels acknowledge the possibility of "intolerable" discontinuation reactions."

Basically, you wouldn't get "hooked" on MAOIs just with a random trips on them every now and then. But there's a chance of developing symptons on a continued use.

So that everyone understands a bit better, the most popular of these MAOIs is Prozac.




What do you mean? What do SSRIs have to do with MAOIs? And Prozac is an SSRI, not an MAOI.


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Invisibleinfinitedot
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4961377 - 11/20/05 09:27 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
I know that they cause twice the effect.

But is it worth it? Does your brain just go back to normal after? Is it alright to have these imbalances in chemicals that your brain needs?

Quote:

Tyramine is an amino acid which is normally metabolized by MAO in the
gut.  After taking tranylcypromine or phenelzine (but not, apparently,
moclobemide) this MAO is inhibited and any dietary Tyramine will not be
metabolized and will cause an increase in tyramine levels in blood.  This
is bad due to tyramine's effect on norepinephrine and leads to a
hypertensive crisis.  Blood pressure goes up to 180+ over something,
heartbeat goes to well over 100 bpm, and people who suffer one of these
typically report getting the most painful headache of their lives.  Sometimes
a Ca-blocker like nifedipine is prescribed for the user of the MAOI to
take to combat this effect should it occur.




And what about this business with not being able to consume tyramine without going into hypertensive crisis? It sounds like you really have to watch what you eat around the time of taking MAOIs.




Correct. You have to. That is why it is so important to test this on an empty stomach. On a paper they say that only 4% of the people who mix MAOIs with some particular kind of food might have health issues from it. But it's still a 4%. When it's you, you don't care about the other lucky 96% left.

About brain going back to "normal"...well...I've been asking myself what's the definiton of "normal" for some years from a philosophical point of view. "Normal" is a very blurred term. Any situation that has the possibility to change your life forever, like meeting the person of your life or skydiving, or that first kiss, changes your brain forever.

We are talking about drugs here. We should all keep this in mind. If the question is if it's within reasonably safe limits on a healthy person to test this, I'd say it is. But, again, do NOT take any decision just based on anybody's opinion. Be responsible and do your own research. This should apply to anything in life, but well... we know what we are dealing with.

Basically, my answer is, be responsible and read as much as you can before deciding on anything you do in life.  :thumbup:


Edited by infinitedot (11/20/05 09:30 PM)


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: infinitedot]
    #4961440 - 11/20/05 09:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well I'm having a hard time finding information for one time, or rare MAOI use.

Does anyone know if you're just going to just take it once (for a trip) how long before taking it you would have to not take those certain foods? Is it a matter of weeks? Hours? What about after taking it? How long would you have to wait before you could eat those foods again?


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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4961450 - 11/20/05 09:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


And what about this business with not being able to consume tyramine without going into hypertensive crisis? It sounds like you really have to watch what you eat around the time of taking MAOIs.




This holds true ONLY for the very first pharmaceutical MAO inhibitors.This is caused by NON SELECTIVE, IRREVERSIBLE MAO INHIBITORS.Harmine and Harmaline for example DO NOT belong to this category as they are selective reversible MAO inhibitors.

So why is tyramine dangerous when on irreversible non selective MAOIs? As pharmacologists would say :Everything is toxic,at the correct dose. Same hold true with tyramine. It is toxic for you at certain levels that MAO enzyme does NOT let it to reach.

Quote:

But is it worth it? Does your brain just go back to normal after? Is it alright to have these imbalances in chemicals that your brain needs?




Heh...Well...By introducing psilocybin (something common for the shroomery members) to your brain do you know what happens to your neurotransmitters? To your serotonine? To your dopamine? To your glutamate? They all fluctuate,they are infuenced by this chemical indirectly ,because of cascades of signals and effects it exerts on they way the brain works by inding in your 5HT2a receptors.

Yes,with reversible selective inhibitors it goes back to normal. Even with irreversible it does only it takes some weeks...


Also Infinitedot said:

Quote:

To cut a long story short, psychedelics + MAOI's = stronger effects




Now here is something interesting i read : http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n3/06332ott.html

Please read it ALL and comment on some points he made.Some characteristic points are :

Quote:

Moreover, there is experimental evidence that the pharmaceutical MAOI iproniazid (Marsilid) markedly inhibits the visionary effects of DMT injected intramuscularly. In seven subjects given intramuscular injections of DMT (two at 0.35-0.55 mg/kg; five at 0.65-0.83 mg/kg), greatly reduced psychoactivity was observed when the experiment was repeated two days after having received 100 mg iproniazid daily, for 4 days ("the DMT psychosis" was less pronounced; there were illusions and hallucinations, but without colours, or only with a few of them).(9) The author commented that the "high 5-HT [serotonin] level" produced by the MAOI blocked the effect of DMT, thought to owe its psychoactivity to serotonin antagonism - with higher background levels of serotonin, higher doses of DMT would be required to produce equivalent effects absent MAOI




also

Quote:

We thus have both experimental and anecdotal evidence that MAOI, far from potentiating LSD, rather seem to exert an effect parallel to that of DMT - blocker, serving also as LSD-blockers!




Also

Quote:

Nevertheless, inasmuch as so many people have avowed that Syrian rue seeds potentiate psilocybian mushrooms, there must be some truth to this. I am not claiming this is not true, only that we have no solid proof of this. Since data on related visionary tryptamines DMT and LSD suggest conventional wisdom on this point is wrong, any potentiation of psilocybin by MAOI would be an anomaly, hardly expected - certainly not to be taken for granted.




Interesting none the less....

By the way,some of the things as "remedies agaist depression" at a link you gave do not work as MAOI's...5HTP for example i think works as a precursor to serotonine rather than a MAOI.


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: Psiloman]
    #4961505 - 11/20/05 09:50 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ah, ok, that's good news. So they're the same type of MAOI that is in harmine?

So it should, then, be perfectly fine to take with any food you'd normally eat. I guess the last questions I would like to ask then are, how long before taking mushrooms would you have to take the MAOI? And how long does the MAOI last for?


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4961663 - 11/20/05 10:36 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Alright well after looking around it seems like the time to take the MAOI would be half an hour or so before taking mushrooms.


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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4965103 - 11/21/05 07:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

yes, it did work that AMAZINGLY WELL...
when i posted wow and the weird bird thing, i proceeded to melt into my computer monitor, wall paper flowers were growing, carpet was turnign into worms, im talking about fear and loathing shit, NEVER in my history of being bemushroomed have i hallucinated like that, NEVER
anyways

Black Currant Juice brand: CurrantC
Juice Quantity: 16 oz.
Mushrooms species: Psylocybe Cubensis
Mushrooms Quantity: 4 gr. dry
Did you know the potency of the mushrooms beforehand? (Y/N): Yes, ate from the same crop thrice before.
Hours since last meal: 7 h.
Description of effects compared vs. no juice:umm... these are relativly potent shrooms, but, god damn, that was more like 6 hits of acid than an eighth of shrooms
Description of effects compared vs. Lemon/Lime juice: i have never done shrooms with only lemon or lime, but i did this time, plus the juice, id say that 10x would be a pretty accurate multiplication of the effects... at one point in time i went across the dark house to get some rainbow sherbert, the darkness was just one big ass hyallucination... amazing...
Are you positively sure that there IS definitely an improvement in potency? (Y/N): yes
Estimated potency compared vs. no juice: 4X-5X
Estimated potency compared vs. Lemon/Lime juice: 1.5X-2X
Time to "first alert" (aka, "whoa, something's definitely going to happen"): 45 mins.
Time to onset of visual disturbance: 60 mins.
Time to peak (rough estimate): 4! hours
Time to first sign of diminishing effects: 4 1/4 hours
Time to baseline (indiscernable effects): 7 hours


i just want to say this is by far the hardest i have ever tripped off of anyhting, newbies BE CAREFULL, i have been there, ive ate ounces that didnt do that much before, this could definitly take someone to a very bad place


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



Edited by incubaby_421 (11/21/05 09:57 PM)


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OfflineUnderhillmaster
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: incubaby_421]
    #4965263 - 11/21/05 07:52 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

2005, the year of the Mushroom :smile:


--------------------
If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?


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Invisibleyousuck
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: Underhillmaster]
    #4965525 - 11/21/05 09:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think its been overlooked that fruitjuices that inhibit the CYP3A4 enzyme through bioflavinoid action in conjunction with other elements of powdering psychoactives within juices, potentiates mushrooms to a far greater degree than does maoi's like harmala.

Likewise, Maoi's like harmala greatly potentiate DMT while fruit juices have never been reported to potentiate DMT, although this may be because it has never been done before [experiment in progress].

So one can start to see that certain potentiators work more effectively for certain chemicals, and not necessarily all chemicals, despite their chemical relativity. However, it can also be said that a combination of the two inhibitor classes could provide a greater span of inhibition producing broader spectrum of psychoactive effects. I personally would only use harmala when required, as in the case of oral DMT, as its a rather unpleasant psychoactive and requires fasting, but the combination of fruit juices and harmala could in fact lead to a more intense experience with oral DMT.

As it was said above, if blackcurrant juice served the same function as harmala, it wouldn't be sold to the public for consumption, or at least in the less developed countries, would require some sort of warning label, and if these governments were to fail at protecting the public all together, it would be common knowledge among the peoples of the world that blackcurrant and food will make you sick.

While it could be a weak maoi, in which case an inordanant amount would have to be consumed, it is far more likely to be serve the same function as the rest of its fruit juice cousins by inhibiting the CYP3A4 class enzyme and not the mao class enzyme.


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: yousuck]
    #4965593 - 11/21/05 09:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What would they have to warn against? They might have to put warnings on black currant juice if it contained non-selective irreversible MAOIs. But it sounds like the selective reversible MAO-As are pretty safe, and don't really have bad side effects.


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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4965629 - 11/21/05 09:56 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

could be for those taking SSRI's


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: incubaby_421]
    #4965684 - 11/21/05 10:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That's true.

Huh. I wonder.


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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4965755 - 11/21/05 10:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i e-mailed the company that makes this juice asking them if there was any truth to black currants having MAOI qualities, and that if it is true they should put some sort of warning on the bottle, but i dont think the FDA would allow them to market it without a warning if it were an MAOI... ill be sure to post thier reply if i get one,
something DEFINITLY happened though, what exactly that was i have no idea


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4965775 - 11/21/05 10:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

well I tried just the lemon juice with 1.5 p. cubensis yesterday. Good shit, but now I'm thinking whether I should try this black currant thing today....


Would it be safe to do this again tonight if I did some yesterday?


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Re: *** BLACK CURRANT JUICE is a MAO inhibitor *** + Lemon Juice = 10X Effects?? [Re: psychedelix]
    #4965782 - 11/21/05 10:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

how experienced are you?
i am VERY experienced, and i was frightened at times, which has never happened to me before, maybe try black currant juice without lemon or lime


--------------------
"yet the more i dig, the more i consume, the more i unfold... the less protected i feel.
i am the spit on the hair of the son of an electron, swimming around the nucleus of a cell inside the sperm of a killer bee, and my purpose is as nebulous as why weve been bestowed with the capacity to give a shit" Brandon Boyd



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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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