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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4908303 -

It's not difficult at all. The killing of the baby is one of the ends, deliberately arrived at - when the dust settles, it is an end result.


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Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4908639 -

Pros, exactly.

The rules of the baby-game are tainted. If I had to go by these rules, I probably would let the baby go, but only to come back for that sucker. But, as the rules are tainted, I would assume, that he wouldn't be the fool, to let me free again.
So, best to get rid of the rulemake at the exact next best opportunity.

Never play a game with tainted rules.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4909947 -

Ever read Tuesday's with Morrie?


--------------------
What's wrong with folks?

Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs.


Mush Porn

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4910073 -

You are equivocating "end" here.

When speaking of "means and ends" in a ethical context, the "end" can also be known as the "goal" and the "means" can also be known as the method of attaining that goal. When you are speaking of the "end result" you are not talking about the goal state, but are instead talking about the physical state of the world after a certain time.

In the terrorist-hostage-situation case, if you were to kill the infant in order to save the group of people, then killing the infant is not the goal but only a means to reach the desired goal. Sure, you can say that at the end of the entire situation the infant is dead, but this end that we now speak of is not the "means and ends" end, it is a temporal end.

How is killing the infant a person's goal, when in actuality the person's goal is not to kill the infant, but to save a large group of people?

By the way, the case is not tainted, it is simply limited to two options. There are only these two options and no others. In case this is unsatisfying, I will add option 3): everybody dies, including you.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4910215 -

your scenario has no real world relation. kill a baby or else?

in that situation, there is no choice left. letting yourself get into that situation already establishes the fact that you do not have an actual choice.

a more relative situation which has been used over and over would be a train is coming down a track.. on the current track there are 50 people trappedm on the other track there are 3 people..

your options are to allow the train to continue and kill 50 people, or switch the track and only kill 3.

but arent hypothetical situations somewhat beside the point? Ends justifies the means is a standard for oppresive powers, any history book will show that.

but on the other end of the spectrum, who is anyone here to call out what is right and wrong? unless i am missing out on some great posts, no one here has discovered the truth to anything yet.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: kotik]
    #4910852 -

The point is that some seem to claim that the means are inherent in the end; that the means are the end, without any adequate justification.

Hypothetical situations serve for analyzing such a claim.

The situation you offer is not really any different from the one I offered: both are limited in choice.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4911057 -

agreed, however i must admit i do not understand the point.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4913096 -

So I make option 4: Kill the operator, who is making those rules, as soon as possible...
And draco is right with that only those use the term 'end justifies the means', who build a regime of suppressing, which is 'good' for only those in power...

primarily:
Good=what does good for you and doesn't hurt you
Bad=what does harm you and doesn't do good for you
just that simple :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4914989 -

Still trying to figure out who this "draco" person is. Oh well.

You have no means for option 4, and option 3 trumps option 4. So, in all actuality, option 4 is not really an option.

You are mistakingly paraphrasing draco, I don't think he would agree with what you are saying he is saying. However, I have no clue what is on draco's mind, so I may be wrong.

The people who say "the end justifies the means" are actually people who call themselves "Utilitarians." Look that up.

Lastly, your "definition" of 'good' fails. It is circular and simply begs the question: "What is good again? Oh, good is that which is good and that which is not-bad. How could I have been so daft?" As well, your "definition" of 'bad' is circular in the same manner and fails just the same.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4917747 -

So I let the child die, to return to the rule-maker in no happy way.
Opps, I citated kotik, not the ominous draco :lol:
Time you will look up 'quantum mechanics'. As determinism which resolves from utilitarism, is not typical to prognose.
edit: but honest means are likely to resolve in honest ends, if they are tuned in together.

If I hit you in your face, you surely will know, what 'bad' means.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (11/10/05 12:01 PM)

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4918541 -

BlueCoyote said:
So I let the child die, to return to the rule-maker in no happy way.


What? This statement makes absolutely no sense. If you are serious about this statement, then obviously you have not been paying attention to what has been said in this thread.

Quote:
Time you will look up 'quantum mechanics'. As determinism which resolves from utilitarism, is not typical to prognose.


What are you on? This is hardly coherent. Even if it was coherent, do you have any justifications for such a claim, or are you simply spewing out any technical jargon that will make you look like you know what you are talking about?

Quantum mechanics, sure, does some weird stuff on the micro-level, but when it comes to the macro-level (where ethics takes place), it has no real relevance.

Quote:
edit: but honest means are likely to resolve in honest ends, if they are tuned in together.


Straight up nonsense.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4921583 -

Darcho said:
BlueCoyote said:
So I let the child die, to return to the rule-maker in no happy way.


What? This statement makes absolutely no sense. If you are serious about this statement, then obviously you have not been paying attention to what has been said in this thread.


What's up, angry one ? I play by the rules. I say it again: I let the child be killed, to be free (but obviously the rules are tainted, so I can't get sure to be let to freedom). As you perhaps can imagine, my end is to kill the one, who sets up sick rules. Comprende ?
Quote:
Quote:
Time you will look up 'quantum mechanics'. As determinism which resolves from utilitarism, is not typical to prognose.


What are you on? This is hardly coherent. Even if it was coherent, do you have any justifications for such a claim, or are you simply spewing out any technical jargon that will make you look like you know what you are talking about?


I don't know, what's your point of standing, but I will say two things: 1. means, in human factors, are hardly seen deterministic, as wise people try to control people with this sickening stuff since the beginning of history. 2. That's, maybe because our brain works more on a non-deterministic non-utilitarian way, which maybe stems from some kind of quantum-processes happening in our brain.
So that leads to, if you talk about people as means (as a leader would do and where the justification-part starts), that you can not be coherently sure if some means lead to some end, but chances are much much higher, if you play it the way, that the end does not justify (all) the means. That would bring much more chaos, as everybody defines his means by himself...
Better said, the means have to justify the end, that is all.
Quote:
Quantum mechanics, sure, does some weird stuff on the micro-level, but when it comes to the macro-level (where ethics takes place), it has no real relevance.


See above.
Quote:
Quote:
edit: but honest means are likely to resolve in honest ends, if they are tuned in together.


Straight up nonsense.


By resolve, I mean 'lead to/merge/end up'... My fault perhaps...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4925340 -

:what:

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4925496 -

My apologies darcho. I may have spurned the draco name for darcho by Freudian slip in another post. I meant to type darcho and I guess , as I was considering how you were so logic only oriented in that post, and I was thinking of what a draconian mindset that was to be in, Draco rolled off my fingers instead of darcho.

Same thing there with here.

Logic and left brain only limits. Rumor has it that the draconian worked hard to squelch the use of the right brain hemisphere.

Why does a watering can only have to be used as a watering can? It can be used as a planter, a child's bath toy, etc. Without use of the creative ingenuity of the right brain hemisphere, you have one option for the use of the watering can and that is , to use it for what it was designed and made for, in other words, how you were TOLD to use it by its seller.

Shift into your right brain, and now you become the boss and can decide what it can be used for. Just like how Blue is opening the discussion up to other options, being in use of his right brain hemisphere as well. Interesting how that alternate option  derived from the right is to eliminate the rule maker.

Google the draconian race and then you will know how Draco thinks. Draco thinks just like you do. Get people to buy into logic left brain only thinking and you have their hands "creative intellect" BOUND TIGHT and they don't even know it. Once bound tight, they are easy to manipulate and control.

Logic limits choices down to those that serve the ones in rule with it, selling it. Logic only deals with what the physical senses can observe and repeat. The repetition part is what gets people caught up into circular thinking and traps them. Logic can't "see" what is also there waiting to be pulled into play from the realms of creative intellect and imagination. Logic can't break the circular patterns of its own design with logic.

Only the right brain can break repetitive patterns and free one from the binds.

In the words of the Great Prophet Bob Marley I sing,
" Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds"~ Redemption Song

Good=Good

Bad=Bad

Each is a seed that grows branching out bearing it's own fruit.

Bad seed bad fruit.

Bad means bad end.

Good seed good fruit
Good means good end

Bad?

"Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book
Won't you help to sing
A song of freedom
Cause all I ever had
redemption song
Songs of freedom"

Draconians have their role to play in the grand play. They'll be taking their final bows soon. The bad was never real. It was a set up with smoke and mirrors and just looked so real it was easy to beleive in. They have no roles to play in the next stage scene being set up. It's all good in the end because all comes from the same source seed and it is good.

"One Heart
One Love
Lets get together and feel alright"~Marley

:peace: :heart: :cool:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4926759 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
My apologies darcho. I may have spurned the draco name for darcho by Freudian slip in another post. I meant to type darcho and I guess , as I was considering how you were so logic only oriented in that post, and I was thinking of what a draconian mindset that was to be in, Draco rolled off my fingers instead of darcho.

Same thing there with here.


I'm sure.

Quote:
Why does a watering can only have to be used as a watering can? It can be used as a planter, a child's bath toy, etc. Without use of the creative ingenuity of the right brain hemisphere, you have one option for the use of the watering can and that is , to use it for what it was designed and made for, in other words, how you were TOLD to use it by its seller.


Actually a watering can has to be used as a watering can, or else it is not a watering can.  If we use a watering can as a planter, then it is no longer a watering can, but a planter.  The only reason we would use a watering can as a planter would be due to abductive reasoning based upon inductive inferences made from our experiences of objects being planters.  In the end, creativity and creative ingenuity are matters of logic.

Quote:
Shift into your right brain, and now you become the boss and can decide what it can be used for. Just like how Blue is opening the discussion up to other options, being in use of his right brain hemisphere as well. Interesting how that alternate option  derived from the right is to eliminate the rule maker.


Sounds like some new age influenced thought being used in attempts to justify nonsense.

Quote:
Google the draconian race and then you will know how Draco thinks. Draco thinks just like you do. Get people to buy into logic left brain only thinking and you have their hands "creative intellect" BOUND TIGHT and they don't even know it. Once bound tight, they are easy to manipulate and control.


Uh huh.  Well I can still be creative by thinking logically, so it looks like these "bindings of logic" don't actually exist.

Quote:
Logic limits choices down to those that serve the ones in rule with it, selling it. Logic only deals with what the physical senses can observe and repeat. The repetition part is what gets people caught up into circular thinking and traps them. Logic can't "see" what is also there waiting to be pulled into play from the realms of creative intellect and imagination. Logic can't break the circular patterns of its own design with logic.


You obviously don't understand the role of logic in thought.  Sure, logic may seem scary at first, but once you realize the role it plays in the world, then you might give up this "follow your right brain" new age talk.

Quote:
Only the right brain can break repetitive patterns and free one from the binds.


How?  Sounds magical.

Quote:
In the words of the Great Prophet Bob Marley I sing,
" Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds"~ Redemption Song

Good=Good

Bad=Bad

Each is a seed that grows branching out bearing it's own fruit.

Bad seed bad fruit.

Bad means bad end.

Good seed good fruit
Good means good end

Bad?

"Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book
Won't you help to sing
A song of freedom
Cause all I ever had
redemption song
Songs of freedom"

Draconians have their role to play in the grand play. They'll be taking their final bows soon. The bad was never real. It was a set up with smoke and mirrors and just looked so real it was easy to beleive in. They have no roles to play in the next stage scene being set up. It's all good in the end because all comes from the same source seed and it is good.

"One Heart
One Love
Lets get together and feel alright"~Marley



Great, taking lyrics out of context and applying them to your own thought, hoping that it will somehow be insightful.  Pretty sure Bob Marley wasn't "prophesying" about being illogical and talking a whole lot of unsupported nonsense.  :rolleyes:

Bad means, bad ends?  Good means, good ends?  So is this some form of argument where you are claiming that a deontological system of ethics is more logical than a utilitarian system of ethics?  That if the means are wrong, then no matter what ever comes out of those means, the end is also wrong?

So it is wrong to kill an infant, so we don't kill the infant, because if we do, then the saving of multiple lives will be wrong.  We don't kill the infant, and because of this multiple people die, but this is good, because, regardless of the many lives just lost, we did a good thing and didn't kill a single infant.

Edited by Darcho (11/12/05 07:28 PM)

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4926798 -

The means (or path) is inherently included in the end (result).

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4927484 -

:lol: Adding those lyrics were just in the flow of my thoughts. I like to share myself here.  :smile:

I never answered what I would do about whatever it is that you all are discussing here because I didn't even read the first post. I grabbed the last page that was up and rolled off that.

Choices choices choices. The more options you have, the more preferable choices one can make, I think. When it comes to ethical choices, the ones I make come down to which ones I can fall asleep with the best at the end of the day. :smile:

I was using the word Bad and you replaced it with wrong. They don't always mean the same thing. I only use wrong where facts or rules are applied to communicate and get along in this world. After that, its all a preferential wash to me.

Sour key lime pie might taste "bad" to me, yet it doesn't mean anything is wrong with it or how it was made.

Bad and wrong don't always go together.

Bad can just be used for what is not a pleasure to experience, like someones bad breath. Subjective value judgments is all this stuff is to me.

If my wall is painted yellow and you guess its purple, you can be wrong in your guess. If you think the yellow looks bad, you can't be wrong in your opinion.

When it comes to personal value judgments, I don't see where the word wrong applies. I mean really, do we make wrong choices or are they just bad ones sometimes? Was it wrong of me to order the fish and chips Or, did I just make a less preferable choice if I liked what my friend ordered better after trying it?

Consider going a week through life using preferences in your choice making instead of saying "right and wrong". Preferences take the black and white of right and wrong out of life, and the conflict that comes along with it as well. Preferences are wonderful to live by versus oppositional moral value judgments.

Whatever. :reachforthelasers:I mostly just wanted to clear up the Draco thing from my end. You're a beautiful human darcho. :bow: :hug:

There's more to all of us then just one mindset and more to draw from then one mindset alone as well. :thumbup:

:peace:  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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