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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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ends justify the means?
    #4898918 -

do you think the ends justify the means and that it is necessary to do evil that good may come out of it?

Edited by porcupine (11/05/05 10:58 PM)

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4898936 -

I think that's a bit vague. Generally speaking, given the option to do good and have good come of it, or to do evil and have good come of it, I'd choose the former. In a situation where good could only come of evil, and the alternative (non-action) leads to evil, the ends justify the means, because to not committ the evil would result in NO good.

I think most people would SAY the ends don't justify the means, but I think most people believe that they do. Then again, the majority of people are self-concerned, and so "negligable evils" to others go unnoticed.


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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4898978 -

Here you refer to utilitarianism. Like all ethical theories, it has it flaws.

Remember when that guy in the USA said something along the lines of, "If you really want reduce the crime rate in this country, then you should abort all black babies?" You probably do. This was in fact a reductio ad absurdum against utilitarianism; that is, an argument against utilitarian that shows how arguing from the principle of utility will result in absurd conclusions. It is definitely absurd to abort all black babies.

Is it alright to suicide bomb a market full of innocent people, if in the end you think you will aid in the destabilization of an evil empire, and in turn save more lives than you had initially taken? If you are a utilitarian, if the ends justify the means, then yes, there is nothing wrong with this act.

In opposition, in some respects, to utilitarianism is deontology, which basically states that the means justify the ends.

Both of these ethical theories have issues against them, and I think this may be due to their attempts to create an absolute system of ethics. What should really be done is to supplement the two theories with each other, and produce more of a relative system of ethics.

One of the key principles of deontology is the categorical imperative, which I think utilitarian theory can benefit from.

So to answer your question: It depends on the situation, whether or not the means justifies the ends, or vice versa.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4899200 -

I've always considered that question, as normally stated, to be really, really stupid. The means is part of the end result; you can't just arbitrarily separate the two.

To use the previous example: the end result is that a market full of innocents die and - if you were correct in your predictions - an evil empire gets overthrown. Just because something else happens later on as a result doesn't mean that those people are any less dead in the end.

The means is part of the end. The problem is balancing the pros and cons of any given end scenario to determine if an action is worth it or not, which is a highly individual and subjective thing that depends entirely on the situation. It can be an interesting exercise to consider the rightness or wrongness of individual scenarios, but I don't think anything meaningful can be gained by trying to overgeneralize it all into a single abstract moral question like that.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4899209 -

If the ends are directly beneficial to me, then the means are justified. If it is for anyone else, then I'd have to look at each individual situation.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4899591 -

For me, my experience showed that the means have to be in resonance to the end, else you will loose every credibility.
To suicide-bomb for a regime of love and compassion ? Makes no sense, as this will sum up to the end and noone will believe you anymore.
Even in our democratic systems of free speach, I never understood, why criminals in jail have not the right to speak what they need. That sucks, is contradictory and robs all credibility from the system, which claims its end to the opposite.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4901859 -

No. To do good NEVER requires evil. How do you define good?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4902064 -

the ends never justify the means. by the very definition of doing good, they cannot. if your actions were good, they would BE good, not evil, in the first place. duh!

evil means evil and good means good. plain and simple.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: nonick]
    #4902090 -

i find this whole debate so confusing.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4902100 -

The separation between end and means is a false one. The means are inherent in the end. If you kill a child for the greater good of some group of people, the end is not just that greater good, but also the murder that it took to bring it about.


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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4903478 -

depends where you are coming from.

if you are trying to spread love and peace, then no, this probably is not the best approach.

if you were, however, a ruler then by all means, this is a great philosophy to go by. The Prince is full of insight and should not be shrugged off as evil.


evil / good are opinions for cogs.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4904692 -

i think along the lines of the dalai lama, or was it gandhi?

"there is no way to peace, peace is the way"

substitute good if you want

"there is no way to good, good is the way"

so to speak. if something is evil, it is evil... it is not nescessary to do evil for good i dont think...

i think the only guideline is act out of love, and you wont go wrong, ethically speaking.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4904732 -

I love death.  I should act out of that love.  Therefore, killing people is not wrong, since it will be out of love. :rolleyes:

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4904804 -

Paradigm said:
The separation between end and means is a false one. The means are inherent in the end. If you kill a child for the greater good of some group of people, the end is not just that greater good, but also the murder that it took to bring it about.


Not necessarily. If we were faced with a hostage situation, say with terrorists, and they took one individual out of the hostage group and gave them two options: 1) kill this one infant, and everybody else will live, or 2) do not kill this one infant, and everybody else will die.

In the case of 1), killing the infant is the means to saving the lives of others, it is not the end in itself, because you did not have the intent of killing the infant just for the sake of killing the infant. In the case of 2), sacrificing everyone else is the means, and the end is saving the infant, because you did not have the intent of sacrificing everyone else just to see them die, you sacrificed them with the intent to save an infant's life.

In both cases, the means is not inherent in the end. The end is the goal, and the means is how you achieve that goal. To say that the two are the same is to not make much sense.

If you are dedicated to sticking with the claim that the means is also an end, then you may want to support such a claim with a better argumentation than what you initially supplied.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4904815 -

Quote:
In both cases, the means is not inherent in the end. The end is the goal, and the means is how you achieve that goal. To say that the two are the same is to not make much sense.


No, the means is still inherent in the end. The end result of one choice is an infant dying. The end result of another choice is everyone else dying. Both ends involve death.


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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4904906 -

You are mixed up here. The end in in option 1) is the saving of everybody's life, and not the infant's. The end in option 2) is the saving the infant's life, and not everybody else's. The means of option 1) is killing the infant, and the means of option 2) is not killing the infant, at the expense of everybody else's life. How are these means inherent in the end of each respective option?

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4906134 -

No, you're the one who's mixed up here. The end of saving everyone else's life also includes a dead infant. The dead infant may be the means, but it is also an end result. How is this so difficult to comprehend?


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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Silversoul]
    #4908155 -

It is difficult to comprehend, because you have not sufficiently explained why the means are the end.

The final result may be the death of an infant and the saving of everybody else's life, but that is just the totality of means and end, and not the end itself. The end result of killing the infant is the saving of everybody else's life. Killing the infant is simply how that end state is achieved.

If the death of the infant were to be included in the end, then the infant would have to be killed for the pure sake of killing the infant, where the means would be killing the infant and the end would be the desired death of the infant. However, the desired result in this case is not the death of the infant, it is the saving of many more lives.

When speaking of "means and ends," the "end" is the desired result, or the intentional result. The "means" is the method we use to achieve that result. So unless the infant's death was desired, or intended, as an end result, it is not included in the end.

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: porcupine]
    #4908208 -

Rather the end justifies the means is dependant totally on the situation. If I used a 50 megaton nuclear device to get rid of a termite problem in my house, the end would NOT justify the means.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: ends justify the means? [Re: Darcho]
    #4908211 -

Well it all depends, on what your values are, who your hurting, whos watching, what their values are, If their interested and what time of day it is.


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Guinness is good for you. So are multivitamins.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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