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Offlinelonestar2004
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Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order.
    #4654222 - 09/13/05 11:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Egyptians, PA agree to close Gaza-Egypt border
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza


Egyptian and Palestinian security commanders decided after a meeting Tuesday to close the Gaza-Egypt border, which had been overrun by thousands of people since Israeli troops withdrew earlier this week, officials said.

The border is to be closed by Wednesday evening, said Jamal Kaed, the Palestinian commander of southern Gaza. Starting Tuesday evening, Palestinian security forces will set up roadblocks near the border to prevent cars from reaching the area, he said.

The commander also said Palestinian security forces have confiscated large amounts of marijuana and other illegal drugs along the border. He noted that the border, once heavily guarded by Israel, had divided many Palestinian families who were able to meet for the first time after Israeli troops withdrew.

Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order

Palestinian police on Tuesday blocked off abandoned settlements and chased after scavengers in a first attempt to impose law and order after chaotic celebrations of Israel's pullout from Gaza, but the overwhelmed forces were unable to halt looting of the area's prized greenhouses.

Egyptian guards, meanwhile, failed for a second straight day to control a rush across the Gaza-Egypt border, deepening concerns over when Egypt would impose control over a crossing that Israel fears will be used to bring weapons to Palestinian militants.

With the Israelis gone, Gazans dug under walls and climbed over barriers to get to Egypt where they went on a shopping spree in Egyptian towns, hauling home suitcases and boxes full of cheap cigarettes, food, fish and other goods.

The chaos in Gaza raised new questions about the Palestinian forces' ability to impose order in Gaza.

The greenhouses, left behind by Israel as part of a deal brokered by international mediators, are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza after 38 years of Israeli occupation. The Palestinian Authority hopes the high-tech greenhouses will provide jobs and export income for Gaza's shattered economy.

During a tour of Neveh Dekalim, Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei implored Palestinians to leave the structures intact, even as people scavenged through debris elsewhere in the settlement.

"These greenhouses are for the Palestinian people," he said. "We don't want anyone to touch or harm anything that can be useful for our people."

Just minutes away, crowds of looters in the Gadid settlement overwhelmed hundreds of guards trying to protect the greenhouses. Guards acknowledged that in many cases, they were unable to stop the looting.

"They are taking plastic sheeting, they are taking hoses, they are taking anything they can get their hands on," said Hamza Judeh, a Palestinian policeman.

He said about 80 percent of the greenhouses were still intact, but looters walked off with lighting fixtures, cables and wires. Many were undeterred by the police presence. Police said one man dropped his loot only after he was beaten by security forces.

Israel withdrew the last of its troops from Gaza early Monday, handing control of the coastal strip to the Palestinians. Celebrations frequently spun out of control, with Palestinians setting fire to debris and the few remaining buildings in empty settlements, and thousands of people rushing back and forth across the Egyptian border.

In an attempt to restore order, police early Tuesday banned cars from entering Neveh Dekalim, once the largest Gaza settlement, and cordoned off the empty synagogue there, which had been set on fire a day earlier. Club-wielding police chased kids and urged people to stop scavenging through debris left behind by the Israelis.



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1126578003516




















"A group of American businessmen paid millions of dollars to keep those greenhouses intact so the many many jobs of palestinians working there would be preserved."


Give a man a garden and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to garden and he'll eat for a lifetime.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4654287 - 09/13/05 11:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"All your greenouses are belong to us."




Phred


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4654290 - 09/13/05 11:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4240616.stm

People were seen ripping out irrigations hoses and taking the tarpaulin covering of greenhouses.

Mr Qurei urged Palestinians to stop looting and start rebuilding the abandoned settlements.

"You won't profit from a pillar, plastic tubing or pieces of wood that you are taking. Protect them because they are yours," he said in Neve Dekalim.





Sad, very sad. And the Israelis can say, "told you so". But what can they do, start shooting people?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4654292 - 09/13/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How many hours before we see the first complaints from the Angry Left (also sometimes called the Perennially Indignant) that Bush didn't send FEMA in quickly enough to protect the greenhouses? I'm guessing less than 16 hours. Anyone else want to post a guess?




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4654297 - 09/13/05 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I've got a GREAT idea!

Let's give these people their own state.





Phred


--------------------


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4654311 - 09/13/05 11:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The Iraqis seem unable to impose law and order, should they be allowed their own state?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4654352 - 09/13/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:
Quote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4240616.stm

People were seen ripping out irrigations hoses and taking the tarpaulin covering of greenhouses.

Mr Qurei urged Palestinians to stop looting and start rebuilding the abandoned settlements.

"You won't profit from a pillar, plastic tubing or pieces of wood that you are taking. Protect them because they are yours," he said in Neve Dekalim.





Sad, very sad. And the Israelis can say, "told you so". But what can they do, start shooting people?








They will get AID from the UN/US and other countries who are dumb enough to feel sorry for them.

Their gov. will continue to steal most of it and then blame Israel and the USA for why their lives are soo hard.

Then we will send them all $2000.00 Debit Cards.....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineUnagipie
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Registered: 08/11/05
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655210 - 09/13/05 03:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
I've got a GREAT idea!

Let's give these people their own state.





Phred




What's your solution then: 1 state or 2 state solution? Because occupying the Palestinians is wrong.


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4655228 - 09/13/05 03:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:
The Iraqis seem unable to impose law and order, should they be allowed their own state?




Americans seem unable to impose law and order, should they be allowed to control their cities?

New Orleans easily knocked the breath out of this type of argument, unless you want to argue it's the "inferior races" doing it and not the civilized white people. But even that could be refuted by history; all types of people from all types of countries speaking all types of languages have looted, raped, murdered and pillaged during times of chaos. Perhaps this is because it's simple human nature.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Unagipie]
    #4655306 - 09/13/05 04:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel fair and square, ever since 1967. If Israel decides to give them back to Egypt and Jordan, that's fine with me -- their decision. If Egypt and Jordan don't want those areas back and Israel doesn't want them any more either, might as well let those who used to live in those parts of Egypt and Jordan (and their descendants) form their own state if that's what they want to do.

It will of course be just another failed state generating a steady stream of 'splodeydopes who'll have to be dealt with, but hey... that's religion for ya.




Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655316 - 09/13/05 04:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel fair and square, ever since 1967.



So might makes right?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4655352 - 09/13/05 04:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Israel was attacked. The attackers lost. That's the risk you take when you start a war of conquest.

'Twas ever thus.





Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655358 - 09/13/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Israel was attacked. The attackers lost. That's the risk you take when you start a war of conquest.

'Twas ever thus.



So an attempted conquest by one party warrants a conquest by the other?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4655394 - 09/13/05 04:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So an attempted conquest by one party warrants a conquest by the other?




Of course. If your enemy is going to launch attacks across your border into your heartland from Zone X, it makes sense to seize and occupy Zone X to prevent them from repeating the attempt. Buffer zones.

You'll note Israel didn't seize all of Egypt or all of Jordan. They stopped when they figured they had a large enough buffer. In light of the nearly four decades of events since then, in hindsight it is debatable whether or not they in fact did secure a large enough buffer. But that doesn't invalidate the principle.



Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655419 - 09/13/05 04:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

So an attempted conquest by one party warrants a conquest by the other?




Of course. If your enemy is going to launch attacks across your border into your heartland from Zone X, it makes sense to seize and occupy Zone X to prevent them from repeating the attempt. Buffer zones.



I don't buy it. If they attack you and you fend them off successfully, then you have demonstrated your military superiority, which should be enough to hold back a future attack. Their military will be crippled from the failed attack, and they will have learned their lesson not to mess with you. Or at the very least, it will be a while before they are able to launch another attack. The whole "buffer zone" bullshit has been the excuse for imperialism going back for centuries.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4655489 - 09/13/05 04:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You presume your opponent will act rationally -- a dangerous presumption. Note that even after the 1967 defeat, the Arabs STILL thought they could win if they tried again, hence the events of 1972. Why react to aggression in a passive defensive mode, then give your opponent all the time he needs to regroup and try again? That's madness. No other word for it.

By attacking, the aggressor nation has given up any right to be treated in any other manner than through force. Maybe the aggressor nation loses some territory, maybe the aggressor nation loses all it's territory, maybe the aggressor nation gets lucky and its leader(s) are just removed from power and put on trial and the country itself handed back to its citizens (i.e. Japan, Germany, Afghanistan, Iraq).

But the attacked nation has every right (and arguably the obligation) to take whatever steps it feels required to make sure the first attack is the last.




Phred


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655530 - 09/13/05 05:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Gaza and the West Bank belong to Israel fair and square, ever since 1967.





Ok, so say the land belongs to Israel, what are they going to do with the Arab population, I see 3 options.

a) Make them Israeli citizens, with the vote, hense the end of Jewish Israel, as the Arab population will soon command a majority.

b) Run an aparteid state.

c) Ethnically cleanse the area.

Or do you have another idea?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: psilomonkey]
    #4655566 - 09/13/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

There is no solution to the problem.

The 'splodeydopes won't cease until the Jews have been pushed into the sea -- until Israel is no more.

Egypt and Jordan could have cut all this short decades ago by reabsorbing their own citizens into their remaining land. The "Palestineans" who lived in the West Bank could have been resettled by Jordan to other areas in Jordan and the "Palestineans" who lived in Gaza could have been resettled by the Egyptians to other areas in Egypt. Instead, the leaders of Egypt and Jordan who had gotten their citizens into the mess in the first place abandoned them.

So it goes.





Phred


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655591 - 09/13/05 05:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, I don't think any of us will see a solution to this in our lifetimes, and a lot more innocent people on both sides will die.

Like you said, so it goes.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Gazans loot greenhouses as PA police try to impose order. [Re: Phred]
    #4655617 - 09/13/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
You presume your opponent will act rationally -- a dangerous presumption.



Not as dangerous as presuming that you are made safer by occupying the territory(see: numerous suicide bombings against Israel after occupation).

Quote:

Note that even after the 1967 defeat, the Arabs STILL thought they could win if they tried again, hence the events of 1972.



They thought they could recapture the territory taken from them. Had Israel not taken those territories in the first place, the Yom Kippur War(which was in 1973, not 1972) would likely not have occurred.

Quote:

Why react to aggression in a passive defensive mode, then give your opponent all the time he needs to regroup and try again? That's madness. No other word for it.



No, it is fairness. If you attack me and I fend you off, that doesn't entitle me to your house or car.

Quote:

By attacking, the aggressor nation has given up any right to be treated in any other manner than through force. Maybe the aggressor nation loses some territory, maybe the aggressor nation loses all it's territory, maybe the aggressor nation gets lucky and its leader(s) are just removed from power and put on trial and the country itself handed back to its citizens (i.e. Japan, Germany, Afghanistan, Iraq).



If I bought into the collectivist notion that nations are equivalent to individuals, I might agree. However, the actions of a nation's leaders do not warrant non-defensive force against its population.

Quote:

But the attacked nation has every right (and arguably the obligation) to take whatever steps it feels required to make sure the first attack is the last.



Would that include ethnic cleansing? Moving populations into internment camps? Suppression of free speech? Slavery? All these things have been seen by various nations as necessary steps to prevent further attack. They may even be quite effective in doing so. This is the madness of war collectivism. It is the same mindset that the 9/11 hijackers used. It is the mindset that every tyrant from Caesar to Hitler to Milosevic has used. It is this kind of thinking which is truly dangerous.


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