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OfflineVisionary Tools
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This is What A Police State Looks Like
    #8037638 - 02/18/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)



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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8037978 - 02/18/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

who cares


I like it

Keeps both sides honest, at least for what is shown.

I'm much more concerned about arrest and search, not the video.


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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8038019 - 02/18/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So what's your point... I hope you're not trying to link the "police state" to present day America through a an anecodotal film narratared by some random chick and a link to nazism and fascism.  Come on.

:chillpill:


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: All We Perceive]
    #8038035 - 02/18/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, he is.

He's an absolute fucking crazy.

Hey V_T, did it ever occur to you that maybe they are filming for training? Or to prevent a bogus police brutality charge? I've been to protests and things are often heated and in extremely close-quarters. It would be ridiculously easy for something either a protester or a cop did to be mistaken as use of force and then be taken to a court.

If this was Nazi Germany, they'd fucking shoot people like you. Instead, you are free to scream your pet theories from the top of your lungs. You're just upset because nobody believes you and nobody cares.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8038055 - 02/18/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't live in your country, here it's illegal to protest. If you try, you will be shot, you will be trampled by mounted policemen, and you will get beaten.

They were not violent, they didn't provoke the police. The police unlawfully honoured an order to move them away from the hotel.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8038071 - 02/18/08 01:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

where are you from?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8038313 - 02/18/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The illegal protestors are acting like Nazis. Yes, I can see that.



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OfflineSage.Phish
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Luddite]
    #8038394 - 02/18/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In the US, or at least DC you have to have a permit to protest, thats what the capital police told me.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Sage.Phish]
    #8038532 - 02/18/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sage.Phish said:
In the US, or at least DC you have to have a permit to protest, thats what the capital police told me.




Whether this is the law or not (which I doubt) its probably unenforcable.

Generally the law has to allow people that aren't causing trouble to congregate and protest in small numbers without notice to the city. These protests can be stopped if they cause public nuisance.

My guess is that in D.C. you need a permit to protest in groups of more than x number of people


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OfflineFocusHawaii
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Sage.Phish]
    #8038578 - 02/18/08 03:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is a classic recipe of a bogus fear-tactic: 1 part emotional protesters 2 parts police arrest claiming to be unfair 9 parts hitler clips. Evey time the police identify a protester, the reason for their concern is [inaudible]. Remember, this is the WTO protests in Seattle where anarchists were looting, protesters were blocking hotels where WTO officials were staying etc.

I can only speculate, but I'm quite positive the reasons for those arrests were legitimate based on things not shown in that video. An arrest is not a conviction or, like Nazi Germany, a death sentence.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: FocusHawaii]
    #8038592 - 02/18/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FocusHawaii said:
Remember, this is the WTO protests in Seattle where anarchists were looting, protesters were blocking hotels where WTO officials were staying etc.

I can only speculate, but I'm quite positive the reasons for those arrests were legitimate based on things not shown in that video. An arrest is not a conviction or, like Nazi Germany, a death sentence.




1. seattle wto has nothing to do with this, guilt by association

2. being positive the police's actions were justified due to unavailable information is as much an investment in prejudice as opposed to reason as concluding that their actions weren't justified


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8038667 - 02/18/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Sage.Phish said:
In the US, or at least DC you have to have a permit to protest, thats what the capital police told me.




Whether this is the law or not (which I doubt) its probably unenforcable.

Generally the law has to allow people that aren't causing trouble to congregate and protest in small numbers without notice to the city. These protests can be stopped if they cause public nuisance.

My guess is that in D.C. you need a permit to protest in groups of more than x number of people




If it doesn't gel with the constitution you don't have to obey at all (but it's gonna get you in trouble if you don't). The groundwork has been laid for a fascist society so we have to make sure that doesn't happen in the future. We have the right to peaceful protest. Never forget our rights and we don't need no permits from the government.


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8038671 - 02/18/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

The Cops aren't the ones withholding information.

If the protesters are so innocent why produce such shitty audio in YOUR video?

What are they trying to hide/


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8038921 - 02/18/08 05:06 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This video is old school.

What is a police state?
The term may be an attention getting device thats doing more harm than good here.

What's curious to me are the seemingly knee jerk reactions of:
"You're crazy!"
"Oh, it's not that bad!"
and
"You're lucky you don't live in ______ then you'd really have something to complain about!"
What next?
"Love it or Leave It"?
?

If these were right wing libertarians being shot at and mass sprayed I wonder how you guys would react. Although I must admit I've never seen a group of Right Wing Libertarians march for anything. Ever.

Maybe you haven't seen the same videos I've seen. Videos of police just generally acting like arrogant bullies and laughing that they shot some lady in the forehead with a rubber bullet. and etc. etc.



I know from small personal experience that in San Antonio when we applied for a protest permit at UTSA they gave us one pretty quickly.
They told us we could protest in some parking lot out in BFE end of story.


And I don't consider myself an 'activist' but I was part of a Food Not Bombs protest once in Texas and I personally saw strange men call the organizers by name...undercover policemen (I'm guessing) talking with police and then calling out the names of some of the organizers.

The individual then drove up ahead of this particular Anti-War March and filmed us walking by.

I doubt very seriously that this was a 'training video' or protection from a charge of abuse as there were no police on that stretch of road we were walking down. (We were on our way between two meeting places.)

Maybe they were making a film, "This is What a Ridiculously Small, Ridiculously Unorganized Protest March Looks Like"?

And obviously I'm not saying these experiences makes America a police state but I can sympathize more with those protesters perhaps because of them.

But then again I tend to sympathize with underdogs to begin with.
I'm kinda liberal that way.

And anytime I see someone dressed up like a freakin black Ninja Turtle with tons of gear abusing some harmless asshole in the street protecting him/herself with a cardboard sign....it gets my attention.

I like to think that makes me more American.
Don't you agree?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8039303 - 02/18/08 06:11 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
The Cops aren't the ones withholding information.

If the protesters are so innocent why produce such shitty audio in YOUR video?

What are they trying to hide/





well I don't know if I necessarily share your suspicons, but its possible

but lets remember that the narator doesn't speak for the group... just one person who was there who presented a pretty spotty account of the incident.

Just cuz this lady is a douchebag and doesn't tell why that guy was arrested for seemingly doing nothing wrong, doesn't mean the rest of the protestors should be faulted.

She made the shitty video, they probably didn't.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8039468 - 02/18/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I like the video.
I don't think it's 'shitty' at all.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8041486 - 02/19/08 02:56 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I can't believe some of you are OK with the idea of the police filming and taking notes on the people at a peaceful political gathering. Then again, a third of you think the drug war is alright and I should be locked in a cage. So yeah, I guess I do believe it.

This planet sucks. If someone finds a giant comet headed smack dab toward us, I will buy a case of champaign and celebrate the end of a plague on the universe.

Where's my prozac?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8041824 - 02/19/08 07:38 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

You can't think of any reason the police would should be allowed to film that?

If it is a peaceful protest, who gives a fuck if they film it?

C'mon Diploid, you aren't a conspiracy theorist. Do you really think they're using that film to put people who protest into some kind of national database to come and sweep them up when they declare martial law?

Really?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8041924 - 02/19/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I give a fuck because the next step is to open a file on people at political demonstrations that the police don't like. It's a slippery slope that leads toward McCarthyism part two.

Do you mind if the police search your car for no reason? I mean, you're just being peaceful in your car with nothing to hide, right? So why would you mind? How about your home?

It's astonishing to me that any lover of freedom would be alright with this. The police don't (or shouldn't) get paid to keep track of citizen's political affiliations. If it's not a crime, it's none of the police's business.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8041956 - 02/19/08 08:59 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We agree 100%, except that I don't believe and you have no proof that is what was going on.

If that is indeed why the police were filming that, it is bad.

But there are 50 other explanations for it, and I don't see why you choose the worst sounding one as the one that *must* be the case.

Do you really think this stuff is taking place?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8041970 - 02/19/08 09:05 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Why are the police filming? What right do they have to film peaceful political protests? What is their agenda?


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8041996 - 02/19/08 09:19 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i cant see how you can watch those two videos and come to the conclusion that they arent being facist pigs assaulting the very people who pay their wages unless ofcourse you are a cop yourself...

its about time people started making molotov cocktails to break their formations and attack them from their flanks and rear with machetes and guns but then that would make the people terrorists in your eyes no?


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: bradmassive]
    #8042001 - 02/19/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

People claim to get beat up at protests all the time, right?

Every time some group gets together to protest bunny slaughter in Thailand, they get rowdy and claim they were beat up by the cops. What should the cops do to stop this?

Film people to show they were not being beaten? Its the same reason athletes keep their sexual liasons on tape. So nobody can scream rape after a consensual sex act.

Or maybe it's a training video. Protests are usually close-quarters and confusing. It's not easy to be in the front lines as a protester, and I'm sure its harder as a cop. How are you supposed to show a cop what a protest is like? Draw him a picture?

The fact is that the police are necessary at huge protests. If there were 10,000 people gathered anywhere in a city there would be some kind of security presence there. But somehow if those 10,000 people are in the middle of a city there shouldn't be any police anywhere around? What the fuck is the logic there?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: alphabeatu]
    #8042007 - 02/19/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

alphabeatu said:
i cant see how you can watch those two videos and come to the conclusion that they arent being facist pigs assaulting the very people who pay their wages unless ofcourse you are a cop yourself...

its about time people started making molotov cocktails to break their formations and attack them from their flanks and rear with machetes and guns but then that would make the people terrorists in your eyes no?




So why the fuck are you here typing missives on the interwebz?  Put on your Che t-shirt and get out there!

viva la revolucion!

:flowstone:


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042010 - 02/19/08 09:24 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ahhhh so zooming in on faces and saying

"get a close up of him and him and him"
"we'll show his po"
"you know him"?

is for training? :whatever:


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042017 - 02/19/08 09:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

ahhhh so you know im just a screen beret then....

i certainly hope theres a revolution before im old

guess what the pigs and government fear most of all?

inhouse terrorism(hooded and disguised to make your fucking jobs harder naturally)


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: alphabeatu]
    #8042033 - 02/19/08 09:33 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

alphabeatu said:
ahhhh so zooming in on faces and saying

"get a close up of him and him and him"
"we'll show his po"
"you know him"?

is for training? :whatever:




All I'm saying is you're getting one side of the story.  Propoganda is propoganda no matter who is putting it out.

Critical thinking is necessary in today's world.  Don't swallow hook, line, and sinker anything someone tells you just because its anti-establishment or cool.

Like I said in a thread yesterday, the same people crying about the police today would be the first ones whining if they were abolished tomorrow.

Anarchy would eat you kiddies alive.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042042 - 02/19/08 09:36 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Man, can't you see it's one thing after another slowly enslaving us?

-Patriot Act.

-Warrantless Wiretaps.

-People held in indefinite detention without charges, without access to outside communication, and without even a lawyer.

-ATT piping their entire bit stream through a NSA analyzer.

-Torture in violation of conventions and treaties.

-Diebold voting machines that miscount on demand.

-U.S. Attorneys fired for suspect reasons, and the president declaring that if his aides are to testify before the branch of government designed to check his power, they will not do it under oath. Translation: the president is cool with his aides lying to Congress.

-And now the police recording who is at a political demonstration instead of doing their job which is to catch criminals, not political demonstrators.

How can you watch this happening and somehow not see it?

I'm not talking conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo. I'm talking a steady erosion of everything the Founding Fathers set in place to protect us from exactly the kinds of things that are starting to happen.

And then to see the apathy with which you and others treat these things is really frightening.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042050 - 02/19/08 09:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

it was the pigs own propaganda that backfired then?
they filmed it


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


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Invisiblebradmassive
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8042065 - 02/19/08 09:47 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Diploid dude, I totally support your opinion on this.


--------------------
"In the beginning, I had no name. i was a shape, a snarling shadow of the Old World which slipped into this existence" - Steven Erikson

"Our progress as a species rests squarely on the shoulders of that tenth person. The nine are satisfied with things they are told are valuable. Person 10 determines for himself what has value." - My good friend Za -


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OfflineHighHat
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8042751 - 02/19/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Maybe their just National Geo, or History Channel associates working on a piece about protest to be published/aired in 5-10 years.  :shrug:


--------------------
Have you ever felt like you were wearing a hat, but you weren't?

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" -Letter from the Pennsylvania Assembly, November 11, 1755

This profile is strictly for role-playing. Any alleged association with illegal activities is purely fictional. Any images depicting illegal activities are photo-shopped or stolen.


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: HighHat]
    #8043069 - 02/19/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Diploid also sees things clearly.

Folk like Madtown are the ones most enslaved, they, who falsely believe they are free.


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Invisiblexdzt

Registered: 02/05/08
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8043160 - 02/19/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is sickening. That's all.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8043258 - 02/19/08 03:10 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Man, can't you see it's one thing after another slowly enslaving us?

And then to see the apathy with which you and others treat these things is really frightening.




Thanks for assuming I'm apathetic because we don't see eye-to-eye on a heavily edited piece of obvious propaganda.

Listen, I'm not stupid. I agree with most of the things you said. Warrantless wiretaps are bad. Torture is bad. (See my torture thread from last week) I don't see the harm in electronic voting if there is a paper trail.

But don't assume I'm some kind of moronic sheep because we don't see one issue the same way. I'm smart, informed, and politically active. I just voted today, and I'm well aware of the issues currently facing the country.

I just happen to think this is the best country in the world. I make no amends for that. Deal with it. You probably think Canadia is the best country in the world, a statement which I find just as absurd as you likely find mine.

All of you kids just sound like me when I was 15. I used to run around scrawling anarchy symbols on the walls of my school and thought I was an awesome rebel.

Eventually, you grow out of it. I don't hate the system. Yes, things could certainly be better. Couldn't they always? I don't pretend to think that the United States in 2008 is the pinnacle of human achievement and existence. I'm not that naive. But I'd certainly rather be right here right now than any other time or place in history.

You are a pessimist and see only danger and fear lurking in every shadow. I don't feel the same way. America has had much worse and much rougher patches in the past than it has now. Much of this has to do with the disastrous policies of our current president who is thankfully in his last several months in office.

You can talk all you want about curtailed liberties and drastic measures and worrisome surveillance, but I do not feel locked down. There is nobody telling me that I can't have a certain job, or I can't go to a certain school, or I can't travel, or I can't read certain books.

What the fuck is my scary and omnipotent government keeping me from doing? Smoking pot? Is that it? The Drug War is on its way out, and I think everyone can see that very clearly.

I'm optimistic. This is a great county. I understand the concerns that people have, but I don't buy into the hype that we are in the End Times and everyone should head for the bomb shelters.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Minstrel]
    #8043312 - 02/19/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Minstrel said:
Diploid also sees things clearly.

Folk like Madtown are the ones most enslaved, they, who falsely believe they are free.






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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8043550 - 02/19/08 04:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Listen, I'm not stupid...

But don't assume I'm some kind of moronic sheep


I didn't say that man, and I don't believe that either. I respect you. Don't read negative things into what I'm saying that aren't there.

It just seems to me that you don't take this very seriously, that's all I'm saying. And to me, it's EXTREMELY serious when cops are making closeup videos of people DOING NOTHING WRONG and who don't want to be photographed by the cops (they're covering their face). Sure it's a public venue and nobody should have any expectation of privacy, but that's beside the point.

What reason could the police possibly have for doing this while being heard on the radio planning the logistics of "Spray and Push"? (With pepper spray)

Why are the police fostering these adversarial relationships with the public they're supposed to serve?

Why aren't they trying to establish open rapport with that crowd instead of planning how to pepper-spray them?

What they're doing is bullying. It's exactly what they shouldn't be doing in this age of public mistrust of and widespread corruption among cops. Just read the News forum here for story after story of cops gone bad.

By the way, how many times have we seen cops attacking a civilian for filming the cops? Search the News forum. I personally know someone whose camera was stolen by a cop (yes, outright stolen) when the cop noticed he was being filmed.

Technically, it was impounded as evidence when my friend was arrested for simply filming, though on paper it was some bullshit charge the cop made up and which a judge later dismissed. But the camera? He never got it back.

Man, I'm done with this topic. If you can't see anything wrong with cops devoting resources to intimidating people doing nothing wrong instead of to catching real criminals, then I just don't have anything more to tell you.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8043817 - 02/19/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I don't like this, but at the same time it's ridiculous to say they are violating anyone's rights by doing this.

What rights are being violated?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Redstorm]
    #8043978 - 02/19/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Looked like their right to peaceful protest was.

Why did the police decide to make them leave by pushing them back and out with a line of pepper spray, pellet guns and clubs?

That was pretty warped and unnecessary just because the people inside the hotel for the Bush convention didn't like them being there.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #8044022 - 02/19/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't talking about the video. I was talking to whoever was referring to the protests being taped by officers.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8044290 - 02/19/08 07:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
You can't think of any reason the police would should be allowed to film that?

If it is a peaceful protest, who gives a fuck if they film it?

C'mon Diploid, you aren't a conspiracy theorist. Do you really think they're using that film to put people who protest into some kind of national database to come and sweep them up when they declare martial law?

Really?




Unions used to video tape and photograph people that stood in their way, as a legal means of intimidation.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8044623 - 02/19/08 08:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

All of you kids just sound like me when I was 15. I used to run around scrawling anarchy symbols on the walls of my school and thought I was an awesome rebel.

Eventually, you grow out of it. I don't hate the system. Yes, things could certainly be better. Couldn't they always? I don't pretend to think that the United States in 2008 is the pinnacle of human achievement and existence. I'm not that naive. But I'd certainly rather be right here right now than any other time or place in history.




No, eventually people like you just give up. You don't grow out of it... you start accepting the bullshit, slowly but surely. You, my friend, are naive.

Zooming in on dude's shirt/sneakers? What the fuck is that about? Explain that? Training? No way. Documentary? On what, the the clothing styles of protestors during the 21st century? Please. Open your eyes. This is police state at it's finest. You don't need to be a tin-foil wearing loon to believe this is happening.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8044768 - 02/19/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes there are police that work for the state. i think a police state would encompass much more than riot/protest breakup. to be a police state there needs to be wiretapping of phones(all), monitoring of the internet/limitation of access to information, suspension of habeas corpus, much larger police forces that display deadly force as a terror tactic(think Uzi/sub-machine gun type weapons), etc etc. we are no where near that.

as soon as the shroomery and its users gets shut down and busted I'll say America is a police state.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
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"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #8044819 - 02/19/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Listen, I'm not stupid.

All of you kids just sound like me when I was 15.




are all kids stupid?
im in my 40's so dont treat me like im in a bloody junior high dare class

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I used to run around scrawling anarchy symbols on the walls of my school and thought I was an awesome rebel.




i scrawl nothing on walls and i dont think i am awesome in the slightest
i fear what these pigs will do to my children because they disagree with laws that want to lock them away for years for doing the same things these pigs done themselves in thier own lives eg smoke weed

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

Eventually, you grow out of it.
You are a pessimist and see only danger and fear lurking in every shadow.




i dont think zooming in on peoples faces to build some kind of dosier on tax paying citiens is pessimistic,its sinister

why are the pigs dressed like soldiers and armed to the teeth against unarmed men,women and children at peaceful protests?

youre sitting on the fence throwing stones at the people who are fighting for their rights as well as yours

ive seen it before,its called broken


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: alphabeatu]
    #8045909 - 02/20/08 01:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

yes there are police that work for the state. i think a police state would encompass much more than riot/protest breakup. to be a police state there needs to be wiretapping of phones(all), monitoring of the internet/limitation of access to information, suspension of habeas corpus, much larger police forces that display deadly force as a terror tactic(think Uzi/sub-machine gun type weapons), 




:dielaughing:"...we are nowhere near that."

Wiretapping phones....
http://www.news.com/2100-1028_3-6071525.html
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1152247,00.html
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0512i.asp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600021.html


monitoring of the internet/ limiting of access to information...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/03/10/MN14634.DTL
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/politics/06cnd-nsa.html
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/3/9/tacoma_peace_activists_stage_blockade_of



much larger police force that display deadly force...
Uzi/Submachine gun Type Weapon...






Habeus Corpus...
&feature=related
&feature=related

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/guan-j06.shtml



What's that saying about cooking a frog?

If we're not a police state now we certainly are moving in that direction.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblealphabeatu
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8045995 - 02/20/08 01:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

An investigation has been launched into claims Queensland police used a taser on a handcuffed man three times in order to shut him up.

Australian Police Minister Judy Spence yesterday confirmed a complaint alleging a police officer had repeatedly used a taser on a man in the Cleveland watchhouse to stop him from swearing had been filed in September last year.

Police said it was one of four complaints that had been made regarding the use of the weapons.

The police spokesman said one case, in which an officer was found to have threatened to use the gun but did not, had been dismissed.

Two other cases were being investigated and officers from the Ethical Standards Command were awaiting the outcome of the complainant's court proceedings before investigating the fourth.

When asked whether she was concerned over the claims considering the statewide rollout of tasers in July this year, Ms Spence said the claims had not yet been proved.

"It is important to remember the matter is currently under investigation, with no claims having yet been proven, and with the QPS (Queensland Police Service) Ethical Standards Command overseeing the investigation," she said in a statement.

She urged anyone who believed they had been mistreated by police to complain to the Police Ethical Standards Command or to the Crime and Misconduct Commission (CMC).

"The fact that the individual in question has accessed these avenues demonstrates our commitment to accountability," she said.

Ms Spence earlier this year announced the weapon would be carried by all Queensland frontline officers from July.

The announcement was welcomed by police but civil libertarians argued police would misuse the weapon.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4408422a12.html
our pigs are arming themselves to the teeth and want tazors to play with now

we have a small population but the third largest pigforce in the world and we have no where near the lunatics and criminals running around like the rest of the world does

we are unarmed,only pigs,rich businessmen or security guards guarding money can legally carry short firearms but our pigs need to be armed like swat teams in america?

our government considers money more valuable than a man protecting his family from intruders

funnily enough this didnt make our news here in convictland,its from a newzealand website


--------------------



i need names and addresses of narc members

pm for details


Edited by alphabeatu (02/20/08 01:48 AM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8046109 - 02/20/08 04:13 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

No. This is what a police state looks like.



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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #8046221 - 02/20/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, we should wait 'till America's THAT bad ...then we'll worry about it?
:nono:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: HighHat]
    #8046280 - 02/20/08 07:35 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HighHat said:
Maybe their just National Geo, or History Channel associates working on a piece about protest to be published/aired in 5-10 years.  :shrug:





then they are dressed as police, impersonating a cop is a crime and these national
geographic camera operators need to be arrested for their crimes


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #8046356 - 02/20/08 08:27 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Unions used to video tape and photograph people that stood in their way, as a legal means of intimidation.

Scientologists do that today. There's a video floating around here of a Scientology security guard intimidating someone by shooting pics of them on a public sidewalk.

Thugs are thugs are thugs the world over.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8046381 - 02/20/08 08:40 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

there's about a hundred videos of these tactics being used by scientologists, there's also several of scientilogy using the police in such a manor, 'riot control'


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OfflinePhred
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8048098 - 02/20/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Diploid writes:

Quote:

Man, can't you see it's one thing after another slowly enslaving us?

-Patriot Act.




Specifics, please. What were you legally free to do before the Patriot Act was signed into law that you cannot legally do today? In other words, how have you been "enslaved" by the Patriot Act?

Quote:

-Warrantless Wiretaps.




Specifics, please. If you mean military security forces listening to communications where one end is outside the country, with a suspected terrorist on the line, and the other end is inside the US with an unknown on the line, then you damn well better be happy they're doing it. If that's not what you are referring to, give us some specifics.

Quote:

-People held in indefinite detention without charges, without access to outside communication, and without even a lawyer.




Define "people" and tell us where they were arrested (or captured) and where they are being detained.

Quote:

-ATT piping their entire bit stream through a NSA analyzer.




Courts ruled LONG ago that this kind of data mining is not illegal.

Quote:

-Torture in violation of conventions and treaties.




Sorry, no. First of all, waterboarding is not torture. Secondly, KSM and the other two are not protected by any conventions or treaties. So double pwned on that one.

Quote:

-Diebold voting machines that miscount on demand.




Yeah, right, Alex.

Quote:

-U.S. Attorneys fired for suspect reasons...




Since the office of US Attorney is strictly a political appointment, they all serve at the whim of the administration and can be removed at any time for any reason, and they KNOW that going into it. Slick Willie Clinton fired every single US Attorney in the country and no one gave a shit.

Quote:

... and the president declaring that if his aides are to testify before the branch of government designed to check his power, they will not do it under oath. Translation: the president is cool with his aides lying to Congress.




Nope. If ever there was a clearcut case of Executive Privilege, this is it.

Quote:

-And now the police recording who is at a political demonstration instead of doing their job which is to catch criminals, not political demonstrators.




News flash -- if you are in a public place, anyone has the right to film you. You have absolutely zero expectation of privacy in a public place.




Phred


--------------------


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #8048424 - 02/20/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i went to a pretty rowdy football school for college. we had a couple riots during a big yearly festival, and we usually had some unrest every time there was a big game.

the place became like another country on nights like those. they'd call in the state police, and they would literally be everywhere. on horses, on top of buildings. marching double time down the street in columns.

they used video cameras. they used them to ID people and charge them later for rioting.

the kids weren't protesting the new world order of global capitalism. they didn't know what the hell that meant. they were drunk college kids throwing bottles and partying in the street. most of them would go on to be good, tax paying, suburbanite consumers in a few years time... assuming they're spared the gulag a few years from now when we're under martial law and cops are scouring old tapes to try to find political enemies, right?

cops film demonstrations so that if a riot occurs, they can make arrests and prosecution cases later. that or they use them because they're planning to send these people to the camps when the big plan goes into action. which do you really think is more likely?

this is what a police state looks like:



--------------------



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Phred]
    #8048429 - 02/20/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Bravo Phred, I couldn't have done better myself.


--------------------


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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8048915 - 02/20/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Bravo Phred, I couldn't have done better myself.




Amazing! Phred, you are a master of doublethink! I give you my great applause.

Zzzap and I would like to welcome you to our Ministry of Truth.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Phred]
    #8048991 - 02/20/08 08:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Courts ruled LONG ago that this kind of data mining is not illegal.

Exactly Phred,

That these things are happening and they're considered legal is what I'm talking about. They're anathema to everything the Founders were and the constitution is about, yet they're considered legal.

So was internment of Japanese-Americans once and with the same justification.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8049012 - 02/20/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

And slavery too!!!! FTW and 1. :headbanger:


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8049043 - 02/20/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Slavery wasn't justified by saying it was for protection from a threat to our liberty.

Someone once said: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

He was right, IMO.

The terrorists are winning by making us cancel those things that define us.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8049068 - 02/20/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Note the words Essential and Temporary. Also, somebody once said that the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: zappaisgod]
    #8049083 - 02/20/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I guess we disagree on what is Essential. Universal Habeas Corpus is Essential in my book.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8049133 - 02/20/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Phred: your arguments seems to be that what's deemed legal is morally/ethically/socially fine and is unworthy of debate? i.e. you have no right to privacy in a public place, AT&T helping the government invade your privacy is legal, etc. therefore these things are OK and nobody should be worried about them?

What many of us are arguing I think is that there is no good justification for the actions of these officers in this protest, whether they were deemed legal or not. OJ Simpson was found not guilty... doesn't mean he isn't a murderer. These police may have gotten away with what they did... doesn't mean it wasn't wrong and extremely dangerous to a free society.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
    #8049838 - 02/20/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

kake, do you think you should be subject to lawsuit and jailing for filming the police on a city street while they beat a pedestrian?

If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?

Freedom only works if people and instituions are treated equally.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Phred]
    #8049984 - 02/20/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Phred ftw!


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
    #8050092 - 02/20/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bravo Phred, I couldn't have done better myself.







First of all...


"Waterboarding is a form of torture..."
First sentence... wikipedia.
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding


"Waterboarding is Torture"
Tom Ridge, First Homeland Security Secretary
2003-2005,
From:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22735168/



"Waterboarding is Torture"
Malcolm Nance,
Adviser on Terrorism to the US Departments of Homeland Security,
From:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/waterboarding-is-torture--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html



"Waterboarding is Torture."
United Nations
From:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0852061620080208?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews



"Waterboarding is Torture".
69% of the American Public
From:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/index.html




Plus,
when the Japanese waterboarded our soldiers in WWII we found them guilty of torture.:
From:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html



Quote:

Phred said:

Since the office of US Attorney is strictly a political appointment, they all serve at the whim of the administration and can be removed at amy(sic) time for any reason, and they KNOW that going into it. Slick WIllie Clinton fired every single US Attorney in the country and no one gave a shit.





"No one gave a shit."


Quote:


March 26, 1993... Republicans did charge politics in President Clinton's mass firing. An excerpt from the article:

President Clinton yesterday attempted to rebut Republican criticism of the administration's decision to seek resignations from all U.S. attorneys, saying what he was asking was routine and less political than piecemeal replacements.

"All those people are routinely replaced and I have not done anything differently," Clinton told reporters during a photo opportunity in the Oval Office. He called the decision more politically appropriate "than picking people out one by one."

But Republicans in Congress pressed their criticism of the decision, announced Tuesday by Attorney General Janet Reno, with Senate Minority Leader Robert J. Dole (R-Kan.) describing the decision as "Reno's March Massacre."

From:
http://newsbusters.org/node/11439







Another source explaining why Bush's Administration should not be allowed to silence critics by firing them mid-way through his term.

Quote:


From Wikipedia Article:
Dismissal of U.S. Attorneys under previous administrations.

By tradition, U.S. Attorneys are replaced only at the start of a new White House administration. U.S. Attorneys hold a "political" office, and therefore they are considered to "serve at the pleasure of the President." At the beginning of a new presidential administration, it is traditional for all 93 U.S. Attorneys to submit a letter of resignation. When a new President is from a different political party, almost all of the resignations will be eventually accepted.[69] The attorneys are then replaced by new political appointees, typically from the new President's party.[70][71][70]


In contrast to the 2006 dismissals, Presidents rarely dismiss U.S. attorneys they appoint.[70][71] Kyle Sampson, Chief of Staff at the Department of Justice, noted in a January 9, 2006, e-mail to Harriet Miers: "In recent memory, during the Reagan and Clinton Administrations, Presidents Reagan and Clinton did not seek to remove and replace U.S. Attorneys they had appointed, but instead permitted such U.S. Attorneys to serve indefinitely under the holdover provision" (underlining original).[73]

There is no precedent for a President to dismiss several U.S attorneys at one time while in the middle period of the presidential term in office.[74][75]
From the Wikipedia Article under section
Issues In Brief:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy#Issues_in_brief


Another quote saying the same thing...

George Mason University History News Network:

"Paul Frymer, a professor of political science at the University of California, Santa Cruz, said the difference is that Clinton made changes when he immediately came into office, not in response to specific attorney actions that were confronting elements of his own administration. That's the controversy with Bush, not the general authority to hire/fire attorneys, but whether he can punish attorneys who confront his administration.

...
another professor had this to say:

"The idea that Presidents," Kassiola continued, "would see the appointments of Federal Attorneys as positions for patronage or rewards for campaign gifts and not the best person for the job will discourage the public's already low opinion of the government."

From:
http://hnn.us/articles/36721.html







There's a lot more infomation available online. So far, the following people have resigned in direct relation to this:


*Attorney General Alberto Gonzales



*Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty;



*Acting Associate Attorney General William W. Mercer



*Chief of Staff for the Attorney General Kyle Sampson



*Chief of Staff for the Deputy Attorney General Michael Elston



*Director of the Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys (EOUSA) Michael A. Battle



*Director to the EOUSA, Bradley Schlozman



*the Department of Justice's White House Liaison Monica Goodling



From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8050133 - 02/20/08 11:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Another source explaining why Bush's Administration should not be allowed to silence critics by firing them mid-way through his term.





nothing you posted showed why bush shouldn't have been able to do what he did, they said it was unusual... so what?


The constitution should be respected, and you can't ignore it just cuz you don't like the President and then bitch when the President throws you in jail for speaking your opinion of him. Respect the constitution as written.

Additionally, how did Bush silence anyone? No one's in jail, they can still talk.

The only thing of relevance to this whole mess is whether congress can subpoena Bush aids regarding this, whether those aids can rely on executive privledge without a formal challenge by Bush, and whether Bush can claim blanket privledge on everything, without the witnesses showing up or stating their names.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8050173 - 02/21/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?



:rofl2:

The history of  mobs of anarchists and activists destroying a nation is rare...the history of presidents using local and state police to silence anti-war protesters is extensive.





Quote:

Bush said:
Freedom only works if people and institutions are treated equally.




Corporations are people!
and Wal-Mart loves you John.
:heartpump:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8050183 - 02/21/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Try actually reading my post next time.

Quote:

That's the controversy with Bush, not the general authority to hire/fire attorneys, but whether he can punish attorneys who confront his administration




--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8050252 - 02/21/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


The constitution should be respected, and you can't ignore it just cuz you don't like the President and then bitch when the President throws you in jail for speaking your opinion of him.




Do you even read what you type?
Because I'm reading it and...it looks like your drunk.

Since when is speaking your opinion about him (the president) against the constitution?

Apparently I'm the only one who remembers what LBJ and Nixon did. COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, Operation CHAOS, PROJECT BLUEBIRD, Black Panthers murdered, etc etc etc Organizing state and local police to harass peaceful anti-war demonstrators.

They sent threatening letters to MLK's widow for crying out loud.

We still don't know the extent of what happened with Nixon.

And you expect me to believe Bush?

"Yeah, we swore we weren't doing anything and now you found out we were. But we aren't doing it anymore, I swear!"


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (02/21/08 12:48 AM)


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8050432 - 02/21/08 02:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others. When we switch from the rule of law to the rule of popular opinion, things get crazy, and its certainly unfair.

I was mistaken though in recalling the US Attorney's office was a constitutioinally-established department, when it was established per statute. Anyways, the Pres. runs his own house, and the law allows him to fire for any or no reason:

28 USC 541(c)
Quote:

(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the
President.





that's it, end of story



The same rules need apply to everyone. You don't have an expectation of privacy in the street, neither do the police, therefore both should be able to record and investigate anything occuring on the public ways. If you want privacy, go inside.

You can't demand to record on the street and deny the police the same, how is this logical, fair, and how could it be implemented?

Moreover, I want the police's actions to be recorded, cuz I don't trust them.

The arrest of that guy in the video seemed arbitrary and excesivly rough, to me. Perhaps there were reasons for this, but if their weren't, the guy should sue and get some attorney's fees for his trouble. The fact that this event was videotaped keeps both sides honest w/ re: the events shown.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8050449 - 02/21/08 03:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

and the law allows him to fire for any or no reason:

I think the bigger question is why he won't allow his aides to testify under oath. If he did nothing wrong, why not say so under oath?

WTF is up with that?


--------------------
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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8050460 - 02/21/08 03:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm sure its because he fired the attorney's for petty reasons... but whatever, who cares. Congress can change the law if they want...

I still don't get how he can tell the aides to not show up, and this is supposed to effect an assertion of privledge. I think he should have to quash the subpoena or sue the congress or something.

In any other situation even absolutly privledged testimony isn't a bar to the witness appearing absent an order. If they subpoena your attorney to hear all your secrets, he's still gotta show up, answer his name, and testify to all non privledged matters. I'm sure Bush could scare up someone from a free legal clinic to go with the aides and instruct them when not to answer questions.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8050465 - 02/21/08 03:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm sure its because

Nobody can be sure of anything until there's testimony under oath.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
    #8050504 - 02/21/08 04:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others




Who you talking to??
How am I not respecting others rights?
I'm walking down the street, peacefully protesting and this wacky guy with mirror shades and a Simon and Simon moustache starts snappin' pictures of us. Because we're at the front of this small march in a small town he thinks we're super socialistas. I just saw him talking to the police and hes got a holster and a gun.

Am I supposed to be more inclined to participate in marches after this?


Isn't this intimidation?
Being followed by a bad parody of a 80's cop with a gun taking your picture?

And how would the police be intimidated in the least if I was taking pictures of them?

I have neither the resources or the organization (or the inclination) to match them if they choose to harm me.

By the way I live in Texas.
Not sure if I mentioned that before.
:yesnod:
Things are a little, shall we say, curious down here...Edit: ...and I've seen police abuse their powers before.



Quote:

The controversy publicized an unnoticed 2006 change in the law governing appointments of U.S. Attorneys. The re-authorization of the USA PATRIOT Act in 2006 eliminated the 120-day term limit on interim appointments of U.S. Attorneys made by the United States Attorney General to fill vacancies. The change gave the Attorney General greater appointment powers than the President, because presidential appointees must be confirmed by the Senate, but the Attorney General's did not require Senate confirmation




Yeah, I didn't understand it either, or maybe you did but I didn't. I *think* it has to do with why the Attorney General's resignation was so sought after.
Read my sig. though.

If this is indeed the case...

I don't think just because the president snuck some triple dealing clause into the Patriot Act and it became law means we should all bow down in defeat and admiration. The country just suffered a huge blow. People were crying in the streets. Husbands are jumping out of burning buildings. The nation is mourning. And this asshole's busy scheming ways to get rid of US Attorneys he doesn't like. That aren't loyal Bushies. That are perhaps investigating his party too closely.

Are you too sophisticated to be affected by that??

Or am I just being naive?


If this is not the case ...
then forget all that hoo haa...



Quote:

the rule of popular opinion




You mean Democracy?
:smirk:


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


Edited by blackegg (02/21/08 04:55 AM)


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8050788 - 02/21/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others.




so what you're saying, basically, is I should allow them to film me, and they should allow me to pepper spray them back, right?


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
    #8051426 - 02/21/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Newegg, that section of t he patriot act reauth. only dealt w/ appointments, n ot to firings.

We can debate that clause if we want, but congress did vote for it, it is legal.


And about your views on police, yah, I fear them more then criminals myself. I've never been assaulted by a criminal, nore burglarized, nor had my car torn apart, but the first and third have happened at the hands of the police (first one when I was 16, charged w/ assault, dropped to disorderly conduct; third had no charges filed cuz it was a bogus search and I had no contraband)

But this doesn't change my views, except to make me acutely aware that police lie and abuse their power.


The streets are public, we all do, and should, have equal right to it. When the police start following you around, then perhaps you have a complaint, and an intimidation/stalking charge, but when they're just filming a gathering, there is no privacy invasion.




Quote:

kake said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others.




so what you're saying, basically, is I should allow them to film me, and they should allow me to pepper spray them back, right?




If they're acting unlawful and you're lawfully defending yourself, yes.

I'd not convict you of assault if you were being beaten by an officer and sprayed him... can't say how the courts would treat ya though


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8054571 - 02/21/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

if you pepper sprayed a cop, there's a good chance they'd kill you.


whoever told you all people and institutions are or should be treated equally is an idiot. while ideal, it isn't reality, nor has it ever been reality.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
    #8054641 - 02/21/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I think treating institutions as equal to a real life blood and soul people who fear death and have consciences (...however convoluted) is less than ideal. Corporations, if we apply the analogy of being equal to people, would be considered completely psychopathic.

As evidenced by this film:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation#The_Pathology_of_Commerce
...which I'm now going to make a thread about.


Quote:

Noam Chomsky said;
"Corporations, which previously had been considered artificial entities with no rights, were accorded all the rights of persons, and far more, since they are "immortal persons", and "persons" of extraordinary wealth and power. Furthermore, they were no longer bound to the specific purposes designated by State charter, but could act as they choose, with few constraints."




--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8054770 - 02/21/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Moved to thread "The Corporation"


Edited by johnm214 (02/22/08 12:00 AM)


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8054868 - 02/22/08 12:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The question is, how can you isolate economic liberty from personal liberty?






That is not the question.

Quote:

You can change your contract... you can't change your law or government agency quite as easy... just ask the chinese, USSR, cuba, and others how well communism "for the people" is working out.




Wow. Slippery slope ftw.

When 99.021% of the companies you come in daily contact with are owned by .1% of the population... changing your contract won't be so damned relevant.

(Sorry, sorry.. I'm on this Gil Scott Heron kick.)

Quote:

but you can't do shit about a government bureaucracy that doesn't care about you




Odd, I was under the impression we could organize and vote to change things.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8062915 - 02/24/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I still think we're headed towards a police state unless Obama gets elected.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8062957 - 02/24/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

We're certainly moving in that direction, I believe, as technology opens up more ways to screw with you, and courts hold that information transmited to a third party network doesn't have the same privacy protection as the very similar voice telephone lines (which I believe is a result of a false distinction between computer networks and telephone networks)

But on the whole, i think we're more free in the last 20 or so years than we've ever been.

Take a look at the history of the 1st amendment.... nobody even won a case on that ground till the 1900's I believe.

Take a look at the justice system. It wasn't till the mid 1900's that you got a court appointed lawyer. Previously you had to fend for yourself.


Take a look at police practices... only forty or so years ago that it was determined the police couldn't question you without appraising you of your rights. And more recent still did the courts rule that if you are subjected to illegal questioning, just cuz the same copper later reads you your rights and gets you to confess again after the miranda warning (like five minutes after the illegal questioning) doesn't mean the later statement is admissable.


So in all I think we're more free now than we were for most of the country's history. But then again, our prison population has exploded since the 70's start of the war on drugs...

so while our legal protections are more solidified our victimless conduct is under more scrutiny

Still, at least everyone knows the major illegal drugs will get you in trouble, they can't claim ignorance.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8063105 - 02/24/08 02:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, my understanding is that we have more protection from being falsely imprisoned but the laws themselves are still ridiculous so they'll arrest you, legally, and you're SOL.



Quote:

But on the whole, i think we're more free in the last 20 or so years than we've ever been.

Take a look at the history of the 1st amendment.... nobody even won a case on that ground till the 1900's I believe.

Take a look at the justice system. It wasn't till the mid 1900's that you got a court appointed lawyer. Previously you had to fend for yourself.






Well HOOray for mankind, but I'm talking about in in our lifetimes johnm.

I'm taking about our *actual* experiences.:grin:

...am I supposed to feel good that we're doing better than we were *a hundred years ago*?

I thought marijuana would be legal by now.

It's now illegal to sell pipes or bongs in my hometown of San Antonio.

Not a big deal but still...it's not so much that we're piddling around arguing over things that should've been apparent a hundred years ago as it is that we're not moving forward.

I thought we'd have a higher standing in the world when it came to education.
adult literacy.
percentage of population imprisoned.
percentage of population below poverty line.
life expectancy.
children without helth care.
and on and on.
violent crimes.
consentual crimes.
pollution.
etc.

We aren't growing.
and in some cases we are devolving.


...and if I read correctly our info from *this very site* is sold to third parties.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8063123 - 02/24/08 02:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well considering the major constitutional rights we enjoy have been the same since shortly after the civil war, I think its a positive sign that we've only recently recieved more protections from the constitution


but yeah, the war on drugs has really spurred alot of exceptions to the plain language of the constitution...


kinda ridiculous... maybe it would have happened anyways, but the drug war sure hasn't helped in the fourth amendment area at least


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8063132 - 02/24/08 02:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I guess I should educate myself a little more on constitutional law...what recent protections are you referencing?
women voting?
blacks voting?
this type of thing?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8064874 - 02/24/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In my highschool they taught the constitution applied to all governments, but they never really mentioned how these rights were ignored for most of the country's history, as they couldn't be applied to the states- which were the sources of most of the abuse and discriminatory policies and prosecutions.


The right to an attorney to all indigents accused of a crime. Only recognized federally since 1963. Before then it was hit or miss. California had state-mandated public defender's prior to this, but other states didn't. Additionally, wikipedia claims that they'd sometimes hit you with an inexperience freshly graduated lawyer pro bono, but that wasn't worth much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_v._Wainwright

Miranda warnings, and the right to exclude statements given under questioning of an arrested person prior to the warning being given- 1966.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

Exclusionary rules for illegaly seized evidence (without a warrant, et cet) in 1920.

Application of most of the bill of rights to the states via the fourteenth amendment. The IVth amendment only was applied to the states in the sixties, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)


Not that the states didn't have some protections for these rights in their own constitution, but the recognition of a federal bar to the states' abridgment of these rights allows a second body of caselaw to be applied and helps ensure their enforcement. Additionally, it allows an agrieved person to sue in federal court through other reconstruction era laws.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8064944 - 02/24/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

wtf... it seems like I allready mentioned these things



anyways, yeah, even the fourth amendment, one of the more important ones to me, concerning search and seizure, was only applied to the states in the sixties. Before that, the states were free to do what they wanted.


It is worth mentioning to all the ron paul supporters that Paull isn't a fan of the application of fed. constitutional rights to the states in certain cases.

As a Paul supporter myself, this is one of the larger issues I have with the man, but he won't win anyways, and I've heard very little discussing this issue, so its safe to say no one will misinterpret my vote as endorsing this plan.

Quote:

The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach, rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some degree of states’ rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system, but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065228 - 02/24/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
kake, do you think you should be subject to lawsuit and jailing for filming the police on a city street while they beat a pedestrian?

If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?






come now, there's hundreds of videos on youtube of cops
swearing that you have no right to film them without
their consent, I've seen it first hand in a few instances
where it included threats of arrest and confiscation of
the video tape/camera and in many cases that very thing
does happen and the tapes mysteriously disappear


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8065275 - 02/24/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes, this is wrong

The cops should be charged with theft if they knew they couldn't do that.

The cops should be sued irregardless and sanctioned.

So what?


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065303 - 02/24/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
anyways, yeah, even the fourth amendment, one of the more important ones to me, concerning search and seizure, was only applied to the states in the sixties. Before that, the states were free to do what they wanted.





Boyd v. United States, 1886, it may not seem as though it
applies but it's one of the earliest cases with a ruling
on the 4th and 5th amendments and is actually in a civil case

Weeks v. United States, 1914. birth of the exclusionary
rule regarding evidence, it also opened the door to
suppress evidence gathered through warrantless searches.


Carroll v. United States, 1925. the introduction of
'probable cause' without the need to obtain a warrant
regarding vehicle searches

it wasnt until the 60's that everyone was appealing
decisions based on the 4th and 5th amendments, Courts
sometimes permitted warrantless searches of even entire
residences in which an arrest had been made up through the 50's


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065324 - 02/24/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
The cops should be charged with theft if they knew they couldn't do that.





often times the cops dont know the laws, they know the
basics but little more, I've spoken with cops that have
admitted to making laws up on the spot for purposes of
intimidation and in some cases arrested people on these
bogus laws and cited a legit law for the 'warrant' needed
for booking

cops are rarely disciplined or charge, often time they're
suspended with pay pending investigation and due
to whats known in police circles as 'Jerrold Rights' they
are often times immune to prosecution and only
disciplinary action


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8065334 - 02/24/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Boyd was a federally prosecuted case, concerning federally-seized merchandise and compelled production of papers, so this doesn't implicate the application of the fourth amendment to the states, as far as I can tell.

likewise with the other cases

since the united states seemed to be party, I presume they prosecuted and seized the items. So what?


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8067806 - 02/25/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach, rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some degree of states’ rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system, but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature




I like the idea of decentralizing power.

I feel that the Federal laws should not be outlawing victimless crimes(gey marriage)(marijuana)
...only crimes where the mob mentality infringes on someones civil rights(voting rights for blacks etc).

Everything else should be taken up be state courts if at all possible.

People will feel much more interested in local politics because their say will be proportionally bigger
and the laws will respond to the a larger percentage of the immeadiate population.

Something else:

What's that saying of the states acting as laboratories for the nation?

I like that too.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8068382 - 02/25/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, and this is pretty much mccain's position on gay marriage, to my understanding, that it isn't a federal issue, which I like


What I also like is the idea that the constitution restrains government and sets a bare minimum of acceptabel behavior


States don't have to allow marriage, but if they do, it had better be equally available (equal protection, due process, et cet) to all citizens.


Prior to reconstruction, their was no authority for someone to remedy constitutional violations through civil suit. We now have the much-bemoaned sec 1983 suits, which I think are a good thing.

Sure the prisoners abuse it like crazy, but sanction them.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8068406 - 02/25/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:



often times the cops dont know the laws, they know the
basics but little more, I've spoken with cops that have
admitted to making laws up on the spot for purposes of
intimidation and in some cases arrested people on these
bogus laws and cited a legit law for the 'warrant' needed
for booking

cops are rarely disciplined or charge, often time they're
suspended with pay pending investigation and due
to whats known in police circles as 'Jerrold Rights' they
are often times immune to prosecution and only
disciplinary action




I completely agree. Cops are often stupid, don't know the law, and areintoxicated with authority.

Where we differ is were things need to change. I think that people need to wake up, realize that police are almost never your friend, and don't hesitate to aquite defendants when the case is based on the unsubstantiated testimony of a cop.

Don't let them off the hook when they get sued.

Advocate for judgess that won't dismiss or grant summary judgement to cops named in civil suits.


People are complacent cuz only those that have to drive late at night, or live in certain areas, know the true nature of the beast.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8071545 - 02/26/08 08:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think that people need to wake up, realize that police are almost never your friend, and don't hesitate to aquite defendants when the case is based on the unsubstantiated testimony of a cop.




But they look so nifty up there with their cue cards and uniforms.
Who could doubt them?

and don't you have to ask for trial by jury?
which would be a pretty ballsy move for any activist or young, hairy hippy-type.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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