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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8063105 - 02/24/08 02:09 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, my understanding is that we have more protection from being falsely imprisoned but the laws themselves are still ridiculous so they'll arrest you, legally, and you're SOL.



Quote:

But on the whole, i think we're more free in the last 20 or so years than we've ever been.

Take a look at the history of the 1st amendment.... nobody even won a case on that ground till the 1900's I believe.

Take a look at the justice system. It wasn't till the mid 1900's that you got a court appointed lawyer. Previously you had to fend for yourself.






Well HOOray for mankind, but I'm talking about in in our lifetimes johnm.

I'm taking about our *actual* experiences.:grin:

...am I supposed to feel good that we're doing better than we were *a hundred years ago*?

I thought marijuana would be legal by now.

It's now illegal to sell pipes or bongs in my hometown of San Antonio.

Not a big deal but still...it's not so much that we're piddling around arguing over things that should've been apparent a hundred years ago as it is that we're not moving forward.

I thought we'd have a higher standing in the world when it came to education.
adult literacy.
percentage of population imprisoned.
percentage of population below poverty line.
life expectancy.
children without helth care.
and on and on.
violent crimes.
consentual crimes.
pollution.
etc.

We aren't growing.
and in some cases we are devolving.


...and if I read correctly our info from *this very site* is sold to third parties.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8063123 - 02/24/08 02:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well considering the major constitutional rights we enjoy have been the same since shortly after the civil war, I think its a positive sign that we've only recently recieved more protections from the constitution


but yeah, the war on drugs has really spurred alot of exceptions to the plain language of the constitution...


kinda ridiculous... maybe it would have happened anyways, but the drug war sure hasn't helped in the fourth amendment area at least


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8063132 - 02/24/08 02:25 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I guess I should educate myself a little more on constitutional law...what recent protections are you referencing?
women voting?
blacks voting?
this type of thing?


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8064874 - 02/24/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

In my highschool they taught the constitution applied to all governments, but they never really mentioned how these rights were ignored for most of the country's history, as they couldn't be applied to the states- which were the sources of most of the abuse and discriminatory policies and prosecutions.


The right to an attorney to all indigents accused of a crime. Only recognized federally since 1963. Before then it was hit or miss. California had state-mandated public defender's prior to this, but other states didn't. Additionally, wikipedia claims that they'd sometimes hit you with an inexperience freshly graduated lawyer pro bono, but that wasn't worth much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_v._Wainwright

Miranda warnings, and the right to exclude statements given under questioning of an arrested person prior to the warning being given- 1966.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

Exclusionary rules for illegaly seized evidence (without a warrant, et cet) in 1920.

Application of most of the bill of rights to the states via the fourteenth amendment. The IVth amendment only was applied to the states in the sixties, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)


Not that the states didn't have some protections for these rights in their own constitution, but the recognition of a federal bar to the states' abridgment of these rights allows a second body of caselaw to be applied and helps ensure their enforcement. Additionally, it allows an agrieved person to sue in federal court through other reconstruction era laws.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8064944 - 02/24/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

wtf... it seems like I allready mentioned these things



anyways, yeah, even the fourth amendment, one of the more important ones to me, concerning search and seizure, was only applied to the states in the sixties. Before that, the states were free to do what they wanted.


It is worth mentioning to all the ron paul supporters that Paull isn't a fan of the application of fed. constitutional rights to the states in certain cases.

As a Paul supporter myself, this is one of the larger issues I have with the man, but he won't win anyways, and I've heard very little discussing this issue, so its safe to say no one will misinterpret my vote as endorsing this plan.

Quote:

The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach, rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some degree of states’ rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system, but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature.


http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul160.html


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065228 - 02/24/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
kake, do you think you should be subject to lawsuit and jailing for filming the police on a city street while they beat a pedestrian?

If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?






come now, there's hundreds of videos on youtube of cops
swearing that you have no right to film them without
their consent, I've seen it first hand in a few instances
where it included threats of arrest and confiscation of
the video tape/camera and in many cases that very thing
does happen and the tapes mysteriously disappear


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8065275 - 02/24/08 05:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yes, this is wrong

The cops should be charged with theft if they knew they couldn't do that.

The cops should be sued irregardless and sanctioned.

So what?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065303 - 02/24/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
anyways, yeah, even the fourth amendment, one of the more important ones to me, concerning search and seizure, was only applied to the states in the sixties. Before that, the states were free to do what they wanted.





Boyd v. United States, 1886, it may not seem as though it
applies but it's one of the earliest cases with a ruling
on the 4th and 5th amendments and is actually in a civil case

Weeks v. United States, 1914. birth of the exclusionary
rule regarding evidence, it also opened the door to
suppress evidence gathered through warrantless searches.


Carroll v. United States, 1925. the introduction of
'probable cause' without the need to obtain a warrant
regarding vehicle searches

it wasnt until the 60's that everyone was appealing
decisions based on the 4th and 5th amendments, Courts
sometimes permitted warrantless searches of even entire
residences in which an arrest had been made up through the 50's


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8065324 - 02/24/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
The cops should be charged with theft if they knew they couldn't do that.





often times the cops dont know the laws, they know the
basics but little more, I've spoken with cops that have
admitted to making laws up on the spot for purposes of
intimidation and in some cases arrested people on these
bogus laws and cited a legit law for the 'warrant' needed
for booking

cops are rarely disciplined or charge, often time they're
suspended with pay pending investigation and due
to whats known in police circles as 'Jerrold Rights' they
are often times immune to prosecution and only
disciplinary action


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #8065334 - 02/24/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Boyd was a federally prosecuted case, concerning federally-seized merchandise and compelled production of papers, so this doesn't implicate the application of the fourth amendment to the states, as far as I can tell.

likewise with the other cases

since the united states seemed to be party, I presume they prosecuted and seized the items. So what?


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8067806 - 02/25/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The choices are not limited to either banning gay marriage at the federal level, or giving up and accepting it as inevitable. A far better approach, rarely discussed, is for Congress to exercise its existing constitutional power to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress could statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal judiciary, striking a blow against judicial tyranny and restoring some degree of states’ rights. We seem to have forgotten that the Supreme Court is supreme only over lower federal courts; it is not supreme over the other branches of government. The judiciary is co-equal under our federal system, but too often it serves as an unelected, unaccountable legislature




I like the idea of decentralizing power.

I feel that the Federal laws should not be outlawing victimless crimes(gey marriage)(marijuana)
...only crimes where the mob mentality infringes on someones civil rights(voting rights for blacks etc).

Everything else should be taken up be state courts if at all possible.

People will feel much more interested in local politics because their say will be proportionally bigger
and the laws will respond to the a larger percentage of the immeadiate population.

Something else:

What's that saying of the states acting as laboratories for the nation?

I like that too.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
    #8068382 - 02/25/08 12:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, and this is pretty much mccain's position on gay marriage, to my understanding, that it isn't a federal issue, which I like


What I also like is the idea that the constitution restrains government and sets a bare minimum of acceptabel behavior


States don't have to allow marriage, but if they do, it had better be equally available (equal protection, due process, et cet) to all citizens.


Prior to reconstruction, their was no authority for someone to remedy constitutional violations through civil suit. We now have the much-bemoaned sec 1983 suits, which I think are a good thing.

Sure the prisoners abuse it like crazy, but sanction them.


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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8068406 - 02/25/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:



often times the cops dont know the laws, they know the
basics but little more, I've spoken with cops that have
admitted to making laws up on the spot for purposes of
intimidation and in some cases arrested people on these
bogus laws and cited a legit law for the 'warrant' needed
for booking

cops are rarely disciplined or charge, often time they're
suspended with pay pending investigation and due
to whats known in police circles as 'Jerrold Rights' they
are often times immune to prosecution and only
disciplinary action




I completely agree. Cops are often stupid, don't know the law, and areintoxicated with authority.

Where we differ is were things need to change. I think that people need to wake up, realize that police are almost never your friend, and don't hesitate to aquite defendants when the case is based on the unsubstantiated testimony of a cop.

Don't let them off the hook when they get sued.

Advocate for judgess that won't dismiss or grant summary judgement to cops named in civil suits.


People are complacent cuz only those that have to drive late at night, or live in certain areas, know the true nature of the beast.


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Offlineblackegg
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
    #8071545 - 02/26/08 08:06 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think that people need to wake up, realize that police are almost never your friend, and don't hesitate to aquite defendants when the case is based on the unsubstantiated testimony of a cop.




But they look so nifty up there with their cue cards and uniforms.
Who could doubt them?

and don't you have to ask for trial by jury?
which would be a pretty ballsy move for any activist or young, hairy hippy-type.


--------------------
'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison


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