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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
#8049838 - 02/20/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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kake, do you think you should be subject to lawsuit and jailing for filming the police on a city street while they beat a pedestrian?
If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?
Freedom only works if people and instituions are treated equally.
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SlashOZ
:D



Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Phred]
#8049984 - 02/20/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Phred ftw!
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
#8050092 - 02/20/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bravo Phred, I couldn't have done better myself.
First of all...
"Waterboarding is a form of torture..." First sentence... wikipedia. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
"Waterboarding is Torture" Tom Ridge, First Homeland Security Secretary 2003-2005, From: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22735168/
"Waterboarding is Torture" Malcolm Nance, Adviser on Terrorism to the US Departments of Homeland Security, From: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/waterboarding-is-torture--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html
"Waterboarding is Torture." United Nations From: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0852061620080208?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
"Waterboarding is Torture". 69% of the American Public From: http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/index.html
Plus, when the Japanese waterboarded our soldiers in WWII we found them guilty of torture.: From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
Quote:
Phred said:
Since the office of US Attorney is strictly a political appointment, they all serve at the whim of the administration and can be removed at amy(sic) time for any reason, and they KNOW that going into it. Slick WIllie Clinton fired every single US Attorney in the country and no one gave a shit.
"No one gave a shit."
Quote:
March 26, 1993... Republicans did charge politics in President Clinton's mass firing. An excerpt from the article:
President Clinton yesterday attempted to rebut Republican criticism of the administration's decision to seek resignations from all U.S. attorneys, saying what he was asking was routine and less political than piecemeal replacements.
"All those people are routinely replaced and I have not done anything differently," Clinton told reporters during a photo opportunity in the Oval Office. He called the decision more politically appropriate "than picking people out one by one."
But Republicans in Congress pressed their criticism of the decision, announced Tuesday by Attorney General Janet Reno, with Senate Minority Leader Robert J. Dole (R-Kan.) describing the decision as "Reno's March Massacre."
From: http://newsbusters.org/node/11439
Another source explaining why Bush's Administration should not be allowed to silence critics by firing them mid-way through his term.
Quote:
From Wikipedia Article: Dismissal of U.S. Attorneys under previous administrations.
By tradition, U.S. Attorneys are replaced only at the start of a new White House administration. U.S. Attorneys hold a "political" office, and therefore they are considered to "serve at the pleasure of the President." At the beginning of a new presidential administration, it is traditional for all 93 U.S. Attorneys to submit a letter of resignation. When a new President is from a different political party, almost all of the resignations will be eventually accepted.[69] The attorneys are then replaced by new political appointees, typically from the new President's party.[70][71][70]
In contrast to the 2006 dismissals, Presidents rarely dismiss U.S. attorneys they appoint.[70][71] Kyle Sampson, Chief of Staff at the Department of Justice, noted in a January 9, 2006, e-mail to Harriet Miers: "In recent memory, during the Reagan and Clinton Administrations, Presidents Reagan and Clinton did not seek to remove and replace U.S. Attorneys they had appointed, but instead permitted such U.S. Attorneys to serve indefinitely under the holdover provision" (underlining original).[73]
There is no precedent for a President to dismiss several U.S attorneys at one time while in the middle period of the presidential term in office.[74][75] From the Wikipedia Article under section Issues In Brief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy#Issues_in_brief
Another quote saying the same thing...
George Mason University History News Network:
"Paul Frymer, a professor of political science at the University of California, Santa Cruz, said the difference is that Clinton made changes when he immediately came into office, not in response to specific attorney actions that were confronting elements of his own administration. That's the controversy with Bush, not the general authority to hire/fire attorneys, but whether he can punish attorneys who confront his administration.
... another professor had this to say:
"The idea that Presidents," Kassiola continued, "would see the appointments of Federal Attorneys as positions for patronage or rewards for campaign gifts and not the best person for the job will discourage the public's already low opinion of the government."
From: http://hnn.us/articles/36721.html
There's a lot more infomation available online. So far, the following people have resigned in direct relation to this:
*Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
*Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty;
*Acting Associate Attorney General William W. Mercer
*Chief of Staff for the Attorney General Kyle Sampson
*Chief of Staff for the Deputy Attorney General Michael Elston
*Director of the Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys (EOUSA) Michael A. Battle
*Director to the EOUSA, Bradley Schlozman
*the Department of Justice's White House Liaison Monica Goodling
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8050133 - 02/20/08 11:57 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Another source explaining why Bush's Administration should not be allowed to silence critics by firing them mid-way through his term.
nothing you posted showed why bush shouldn't have been able to do what he did, they said it was unusual... so what?
The constitution should be respected, and you can't ignore it just cuz you don't like the President and then bitch when the President throws you in jail for speaking your opinion of him. Respect the constitution as written.
Additionally, how did Bush silence anyone? No one's in jail, they can still talk.
The only thing of relevance to this whole mess is whether congress can subpoena Bush aids regarding this, whether those aids can rely on executive privledge without a formal challenge by Bush, and whether Bush can claim blanket privledge on everything, without the witnesses showing up or stating their names.
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8050173 - 02/21/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
If not, how do you propose that you have the right to film the police but they don't have the right to film you?

The history of mobs of anarchists and activists destroying a nation is rare...the history of presidents using local and state police to silence anti-war protesters is extensive.
Quote:
Bush said: Freedom only works if people and institutions are treated equally.
Corporations are people! and Wal-Mart loves you John.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8050183 - 02/21/08 12:10 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Try actually reading my post next time.
Quote:
That's the controversy with Bush, not the general authority to hire/fire attorneys, but whether he can punish attorneys who confront his administration
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8050252 - 02/21/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The constitution should be respected, and you can't ignore it just cuz you don't like the President and then bitch when the President throws you in jail for speaking your opinion of him.
Do you even read what you type? Because I'm reading it and...it looks like your drunk.
Since when is speaking your opinion about him (the president) against the constitution?
Apparently I'm the only one who remembers what LBJ and Nixon did. COINTELPRO, MKULTRA, Operation CHAOS, PROJECT BLUEBIRD, Black Panthers murdered, etc etc etc Organizing state and local police to harass peaceful anti-war demonstrators.
They sent threatening letters to MLK's widow for crying out loud.
We still don't know the extent of what happened with Nixon.
And you expect me to believe Bush?
"Yeah, we swore we weren't doing anything and now you found out we were. But we aren't doing it anymore, I swear!"
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
Edited by blackegg (02/21/08 12:48 AM)
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8050432 - 02/21/08 02:49 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others. When we switch from the rule of law to the rule of popular opinion, things get crazy, and its certainly unfair.
I was mistaken though in recalling the US Attorney's office was a constitutioinally-established department, when it was established per statute. Anyways, the Pres. runs his own house, and the law allows him to fire for any or no reason:
28 USC 541(c)
Quote:
(c) Each United States attorney is subject to removal by the President.
that's it, end of story
The same rules need apply to everyone. You don't have an expectation of privacy in the street, neither do the police, therefore both should be able to record and investigate anything occuring on the public ways. If you want privacy, go inside.
You can't demand to record on the street and deny the police the same, how is this logical, fair, and how could it be implemented?
Moreover, I want the police's actions to be recorded, cuz I don't trust them.
The arrest of that guy in the video seemed arbitrary and excesivly rough, to me. Perhaps there were reasons for this, but if their weren't, the guy should sue and get some attorney's fees for his trouble. The fact that this event was videotaped keeps both sides honest w/ re: the events shown.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
#8050449 - 02/21/08 03:02 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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and the law allows him to fire for any or no reason:
I think the bigger question is why he won't allow his aides to testify under oath. If he did nothing wrong, why not say so under oath?
WTF is up with that?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
#8050460 - 02/21/08 03:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm sure its because he fired the attorney's for petty reasons... but whatever, who cares. Congress can change the law if they want...
I still don't get how he can tell the aides to not show up, and this is supposed to effect an assertion of privledge. I think he should have to quash the subpoena or sue the congress or something.
In any other situation even absolutly privledged testimony isn't a bar to the witness appearing absent an order. If they subpoena your attorney to hear all your secrets, he's still gotta show up, answer his name, and testify to all non privledged matters. I'm sure Bush could scare up someone from a free legal clinic to go with the aides and instruct them when not to answer questions.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
#8050465 - 02/21/08 03:21 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm sure its because
Nobody can be sure of anything until there's testimony under oath.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: Diploid]
#8050504 - 02/21/08 04:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others
Who you talking to?? How am I not respecting others rights? I'm walking down the street, peacefully protesting and this wacky guy with mirror shades and a Simon and Simon moustache starts snappin' pictures of us. Because we're at the front of this small march in a small town he thinks we're super socialistas. I just saw him talking to the police and hes got a holster and a gun.
Am I supposed to be more inclined to participate in marches after this?
Isn't this intimidation? Being followed by a bad parody of a 80's cop with a gun taking your picture?
And how would the police be intimidated in the least if I was taking pictures of them?
I have neither the resources or the organization (or the inclination) to match them if they choose to harm me.
By the way I live in Texas. Not sure if I mentioned that before.
 Things are a little, shall we say, curious down here...Edit: ...and I've seen police abuse their powers before.
Quote:
The controversy publicized an unnoticed 2006 change in the law governing appointments of U.S. Attorneys. The re-authorization of the USA PATRIOT Act in 2006 eliminated the 120-day term limit on interim appointments of U.S. Attorneys made by the United States Attorney General to fill vacancies. The change gave the Attorney General greater appointment powers than the President, because presidential appointees must be confirmed by the Senate, but the Attorney General's did not require Senate confirmation
Yeah, I didn't understand it either, or maybe you did but I didn't. I *think* it has to do with why the Attorney General's resignation was so sought after. Read my sig. though.
If this is indeed the case...
I don't think just because the president snuck some triple dealing clause into the Patriot Act and it became law means we should all bow down in defeat and admiration. The country just suffered a huge blow. People were crying in the streets. Husbands are jumping out of burning buildings. The nation is mourning. And this asshole's busy scheming ways to get rid of US Attorneys he doesn't like. That aren't loyal Bushies. That are perhaps investigating his party too closely.
Are you too sophisticated to be affected by that??
Or am I just being naive?
If this is not the case ... then forget all that hoo haa...
Quote:
the rule of popular opinion
You mean Democracy?
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
Edited by blackegg (02/21/08 04:55 AM)
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
#8050788 - 02/21/08 08:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others.
so what you're saying, basically, is I should allow them to film me, and they should allow me to pepper spray them back, right?
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
#8051426 - 02/21/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Newegg, that section of t he patriot act reauth. only dealt w/ appointments, n ot to firings.
We can debate that clause if we want, but congress did vote for it, it is legal.
And about your views on police, yah, I fear them more then criminals myself. I've never been assaulted by a criminal, nore burglarized, nor had my car torn apart, but the first and third have happened at the hands of the police (first one when I was 16, charged w/ assault, dropped to disorderly conduct; third had no charges filed cuz it was a bogus search and I had no contraband)
But this doesn't change my views, except to make me acutely aware that police lie and abuse their power.
The streets are public, we all do, and should, have equal right to it. When the police start following you around, then perhaps you have a complaint, and an intimidation/stalking charge, but when they're just filming a gathering, there is no privacy invasion.
Quote:
kake said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: I'm saying if you want to bitch about your rights not being respected it would behove you to respect the rights of others.
so what you're saying, basically, is I should allow them to film me, and they should allow me to pepper spray them back, right?
If they're acting unlawful and you're lawfully defending yourself, yes.
I'd not convict you of assault if you were being beaten by an officer and sprayed him... can't say how the courts would treat ya though
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.




Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
#8054571 - 02/21/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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if you pepper sprayed a cop, there's a good chance they'd kill you.
whoever told you all people and institutions are or should be treated equally is an idiot. while ideal, it isn't reality, nor has it ever been reality.
-------------------- The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 1,021
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: kake]
#8054641 - 02/21/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think treating institutions as equal to a real life blood and soul people who fear death and have consciences (...however convoluted) is less than ideal. Corporations, if we apply the analogy of being equal to people, would be considered completely psychopathic.
As evidenced by this film: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation#The_Pathology_of_Commerce ...which I'm now going to make a thread about.
Quote:
Noam Chomsky said; "Corporations, which previously had been considered artificial entities with no rights, were accorded all the rights of persons, and far more, since they are "immortal persons", and "persons" of extraordinary wealth and power. Furthermore, they were no longer bound to the specific purposes designated by State charter, but could act as they choose, with few constraints."
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8054770 - 02/21/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Moved to thread "The Corporation"
Edited by johnm214 (02/22/08 12:00 AM)
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: johnm214]
#8054868 - 02/22/08 12:20 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The question is, how can you isolate economic liberty from personal liberty?
That is not the question.
Quote:
You can change your contract... you can't change your law or government agency quite as easy... just ask the chinese, USSR, cuba, and others how well communism "for the people" is working out.
Wow. Slippery slope ftw.
When 99.021% of the companies you come in daily contact with are owned by .1% of the population... changing your contract won't be so damned relevant.
(Sorry, sorry.. I'm on this Gil Scott Heron kick.)
Quote:
but you can't do shit about a government bureaucracy that doesn't care about you
Odd, I was under the impression we could organize and vote to change things.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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blackegg
...has left the building.



Registered: 01/25/06
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8062915 - 02/24/08 12:50 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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I still think we're headed towards a police state unless Obama gets elected.
-------------------- 'Pain is meant to wake us up. People try to hide their pain. But they're wrong. Pain is something to carry, like a radio. You feel your strength in the experience of pain. It's all in how you carry it. That's what matters. Pain is a feeling. Your feelings are a part of you. Your own reality. If you feel ashamed of them, and hide them, you're letting society destroy your reality. You should stand up for your right to feel your pain and leave the Shroomery.' ~ Jim Morrison
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: This is What A Police State Looks Like [Re: blackegg]
#8062957 - 02/24/08 01:14 AM (15 years, 11 months ago) |
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We're certainly moving in that direction, I believe, as technology opens up more ways to screw with you, and courts hold that information transmited to a third party network doesn't have the same privacy protection as the very similar voice telephone lines (which I believe is a result of a false distinction between computer networks and telephone networks)
But on the whole, i think we're more free in the last 20 or so years than we've ever been.
Take a look at the history of the 1st amendment.... nobody even won a case on that ground till the 1900's I believe.
Take a look at the justice system. It wasn't till the mid 1900's that you got a court appointed lawyer. Previously you had to fend for yourself.
Take a look at police practices... only forty or so years ago that it was determined the police couldn't question you without appraising you of your rights. And more recent still did the courts rule that if you are subjected to illegal questioning, just cuz the same copper later reads you your rights and gets you to confess again after the miranda warning (like five minutes after the illegal questioning) doesn't mean the later statement is admissable.
So in all I think we're more free now than we were for most of the country's history. But then again, our prison population has exploded since the 70's start of the war on drugs...
so while our legal protections are more solidified our victimless conduct is under more scrutiny
Still, at least everyone knows the major illegal drugs will get you in trouble, they can't claim ignorance.
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