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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Another Explaing the universe attempt
    #4558720 - 08/20/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, I?m going to explain this the best I can by using artificial intelligence and computers.

Let us look at the most common computer system:
Binary: Of or relating to a system of numeration having 2 as its base.

This system allows a computer to process through basically on and off switches, so everything that a computer sees is true or false, unless programmed otherwise.

Trinary: Consisting of three parts or proceeding by threes

This system allows a system to much the same thing as a binary except there is a new player in the game, the ability to use ?maybe? or leave it as ?2? if you will, or unknown, this allows a computers or system to continue to process unfinished code until that code can be proven or figured out through patterns discovered later on. This system is not popular; in fact no one even really cares much about it, because you can simulate this with a program on a binary system. The argument about this processing is that, it has no purpose, and merely slows down a computer for nothing. I feel there is a link between spirituality and the Trinary system, and that is the complexity of each. Although the Trinary system is slower and less ?efficient? by human standards, it can figure out problems that no true binary system can.



Disclaimer: everything in this post is to be viewed from a Trinary perspective, this means that words may be symbolic and not to be taken literal. The symbolism in the English language can be comparable to the variables in math equations which allow others to continue to process without stopping at everything that does not make sense. If you can understand that symbolism is a form of variables in the English language then you are thinking Trinary, instead of binary, whereas there is only what is and what is not, and no maybes?. Be a system with maybes.

I have come to the conclusion that the universe is in fact a Trinary based system. If you look at the atom, you have the protons, neutrons, and electrons; these are the building blocks of life. The Neutron allows an atom to change through various laws into almost anything. So basically a neutron (which is a space for either or) is within matter (positive charge), which is surrounded by non-matter (negative) which allows matter to be confined, kind of like a mini-universe if you will.




I believe (and yes this may offend some people) that the spirit is within the Neutron, or the ability to change (remember that all that we are made of is atoms, even our mind). I would guess that the only way to explain something so advanced back 2000 years ago would be with symbolism and religion, such as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit", or even yin and yang, while the whole process of yin and yang is the actual spirit itself.

Now with the idea that everything that makes up the universe is energy in three parts (or two maybe, and one unexplained), there arises new questions in my mind. One is this, if we are made entirely of electricity, then is it possible that we are merely simulations within an advanced Trinary computer system (consisting of three parts, -1=negative, 0(-1 or 1), and 1(positive) , (remember that words are only words and could have more meaning). This brings to mind religion, and makes me wonder if there is a connection between the idea that "god" or "our creator" created the universe as it is in 7 days, could this god have been some sort of superior advanced programmer?

So now if we step back and see the big picture that I have in mind, Imagine the universe being our creator?s "computer" RAM, where he has installed a "universe", (maybe there?s a hard drive for backup too :P) now think of earth as an dynamic ever changing operating system, and think of humans as dynamic interactive applications, all driven by these neutrons, or the ability to change an atom. Now these neutrons exist within a person?s brain cells too, let us not forget, and therefore our thought process becomes much more complex, and our brain finds itself making connections that would not normally be made. I believe this is where our spirituality and complexity is derived from.

Now I will stop here to absorb some feedback.

Also I would like to add this, which I found while searching for Trinary information:

Quote:

Research into the existence of Binary companion?s stars uncovered some unusual findings, that such binary systems are as common for younger stellar bodies as for older ones. However, though it has been theorized that our sun has a companion [which orbit each other during a period of 30 million years], there is no real evidence to support it.




Quote:

In research conducted in the closing decade of the 20th century, observations were made of the surrounding G2v [or dwarf class] stars within 72 light years of the Sol system. The results showed that rather than being the exception binary systems were the norm. But that trinary and dual binary [quadruple] systems are considerably rarer than binary systems.




-http://www.geocities.com/mstrpoet/OSR/osr1095.html


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Edited by Just_a_Shadow (08/21/05 12:54 PM)


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4558787 - 08/20/05 01:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Reboot!

I don't have any intelligent input, but I will say interesting stuff.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: barfightlard]
    #4559340 - 08/20/05 03:52 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ohh nm


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Edited by Just_a_Shadow (08/21/05 12:52 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4559412 - 08/20/05 04:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The protons and neutrons are not one particle;  a proton is actually three quarks, two up and one down, help together by the strong nuclear force, which brings in another particle, the gluon. Neutrons are three quarks also, basically the same as a proton except it has two down quarks and one up instead of two up and one down. So in an atom with 1 proton, 1 neutron and 1 electron (your three) there's actually 6 quarks, gluons mediating the strong nuclear force and then the electron, which doesn't add up to 3. And there may be more; perhaps others here will know much more about quantum physics than I do.

So there isn't three "building blocks of life" (not really, the atom is the building blocks of mostly all matter, life or non-life; only a tiny tiny percentage is actually life), but rather you could say at least quite a few more common ones. The number three isn't really relevant in the atom, because it excludes the quarks, the gluons, etc.

You say the spirit is within the neutron, but what area? I believe it's in the down quarks, which makes it double as spiritual as the proton :wink:.

But I'm open-minded, so I'll hear you out; what evidence do you have for your claims? Did you just make up that the spirit is in the neutron as you were writing it, or do you have a logical explanation behind it?


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Ravus]
    #4559548 - 08/20/05 04:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The protons and neutrons are not one particle; a proton is actually three quarks, two up and one down, held together by the strong nuclear force, which brings in another particle, the gluon. Neutrons are three quarks also, basically the same as a proton except it has two down quarks and one up instead of two up and one down.




Thanks for clearing that up, my new theory is based on what I know, I can not account for what I do not know, but I can incorperate it as a known or unkown variable.

So basicly there is 7 particles to a atom, 4 from protons, and 3 from neutrons and then there is electrons, which is negitive energy which is more of a void? or would this void count as something? forgive me if I sound stupid and miss informed.

Quote:

So there isn't three "building blocks of life" (not really, the atom is the building blocks of mostly all matter, life or non-life; only a tiny tiny percentage is actually life), but rather you could say at least quite a few more common ones. The number three isn't really relevant in the atom, because it excludes the quarks, the gluons, etc.



I now understand that it is more complex then three basics. But I do not believe mankind has the essentials to simmulate these more detailed building blocks on a computer system, so I shal research the atom more intensely but also zoom out a bit and focus on the more general version of the atom. This is all very new to me, but where my mind has gone has lead me to explore this option before I can move on. I still believe that a binary system is not complex enough for this day and age, it could not truely process the complexity of the world around us as well as a trinary system would.

Quote:

You say the spirit is within the neutron, but what area? I believe it's in the down quarks, which makes it double as spiritual as the proton .


I can not answer that untell I do more research. But am under the impression that whatever give the atom the ability to change, is the spirit of the universe, and allows it to become so dynamic.

Quote:


But I'm open-minded, so I'll hear you out; what evidence do you have for your claims? Did you just make up that the spirit is in the neutron as you were writing it, or do you have a logical explanation behind it?




Well one connection is that humans are trying to re-create a human mind on a computer, they have figured out that they do need this variable system and have created Fuzzy Logic. But I believe that if this "being" expands and evolves, it will, much like humans strive to discover as much as it can about itself, and will come to the realization that it is based on the binary system, once it figures this out, it may create a simulation of what it would be like if it were completely binary, binary being more effective, it will logicaly see that binary makes it stronger or better suited for this world. I think that once it realizes this, it will remove this annoying extra "maybe" variable, because the fuzzy logic system is merely software and is not hardwired into the system. I Believe that in a sense, these worlds will clash, and the most effective will come out on top, because lets face it trinary is not as fast as binary, but little does binary know, trinary is more complex. Or if you will, knowledge is more effective then spirituality but little do the completely logical minds know, spirituality is more complex then knowledge. That is the best I can explain it. Feel free to ask any questions to enhance communication.


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4559641 - 08/20/05 05:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I recommend reading this URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_model

It should help your understanding and formulation of this theory, a rather elementary overview of quantum mechanics that shows the different particles, the different forces and the particles that mediate them, etc.

Though as you'll see, there's a lot more to quantum mechanics than most lay-men think. I have at most an elementary understanding of it, and I've been reading books and websites about this field sporadically for a couple years. Perhaps Trendal or someone can explain the specific details better.

Quote:

So basicly there is 7 particles to a neutron, 4 from protons, and 3 from neutrons and then there is electrons, which is negitive energy which is more of a void? or would this void count as something? forgive me if I sound stupid and miss informed.




The gluons mediate both the protons and the neutrons; if you look into them, there's not a huge difference between protons and neutrons.

The gluons are the particles for the strong nuclear force, which create the interactions between quarks, antiquarks and gluons (there are different types of gluons).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_nuclear_force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark

The electron is an elementary particle and, in my opinion, harder to understand, but perhaps you can find some information at the Wikipedia article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrons

Quote:

I now understand that it is more complex then three basics. But I do not believe mankind has the essentials to simmulate these more detailed building blocks on a computer system, so I shal research the atom more intensely but also zoom out a bit and focus on the more general version of the atom. This is all very new to me, but where my mind has gone has lead me to explore this option before I can move on. I still believe that a binary system is not complex enough for this day and age, it could not truely process the complexity of the world around us as well as a trinary system would.




I don't believe that in quantum mechanics or the universe, binary or trinary really apply; there's much more than on and off in a universe filled with uncertainty, and there's so many layers of uncertainty and so many different elementary particles that limiting the universe to 2 or 3 based systems seems archaic.

Quote:

Well one connection is that humans are trying to re-create a human mind on a computer, they have figured out that they do need this variable system and have created Fuzzy Logic. But I believe that if this "being" expands and evolves, it will, much like humans strive to discover as much as it can about itself, and will come to the realization that it is based on the binary system, once it figures this out, it may create a simulation of what it would be like if it were completely binary, binary being more effective, it will logicaly see that binary makes it stronger or better suited for this world. I Believe that in a sense, these worlds will clash, and the most effective will come out on top, because lets face it trinary is not as fast as binary, or if you will, knowledge is more effective then spirituality. That is the best I can explain it. Feel free to ask any questions to enhance communication.




I don't know what intelligent computers will do, but I'm not sure there will be a clash. I believe the clash won't be between computers and humans; I believe it will be between humans and humans as they realize computers are becoming more intelligent. There will be the humans that support the increase of these intelligent computers after technological singularity so as to advance our exploration and even be the next generation of intelligent creatures, and then there will be the humans that oppose intelligent computers and will want a return to human supremacy. I'm more of the former personally.

If computers are intelligent, I believe they'd be too intelligent to waste time on clashes often caused by human arrogance, as I doubt these computers will be human replicas. Chances are they'll just be intelligent, evolving computers.


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Ravus]
    #4560054 - 08/20/05 07:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for your input, I will review all of this and take it into concideration.

Quote:

If computers are intelligent, I believe they'd be too intelligent to waste time on clashes often caused by human arrogance, as I doubt these computers will be human replicas. Chances are they'll just be intelligent, evolving computers.



On a binary system, a computer can only process what exists.

I would like to first create a trinary system, and then onto perhaps reverse dual trinary processers. This would be like a processer for what exists and what does not, both working to discover in both directions, the light and the darkness.

An example of AI on this type of system would be:

Light Trinary Processer(same time):
-Looking at door
-random pattern search for the appearance of this door
*Sends to Dark Processer (1)
-Color is blue
*processing requested data for dark processer
*Sends to Dark processer
-random pattern search for the the colors white and blue and its appeal
*Sends to Dark processer
*processing requested data for dark processer
*Sends to Dark processer

Dark Trinary Processer(same time):
*recieved process 1
-Perhaps color is the relation
-maybe all closed rooms must have a door to go in and a door to go out
-maybe all closed rooms need at least one door
*requesting information to support potential theories
*recieved process 2
-does color and its appeal to the vision hve anything to do with hidden patterns within the array of perception.
-what are the most common colors?
-where are these colors used most?
-what other things have I seen that are blue and white?
-does this appeal of color have anything to do with sound or touch?

etc etc... this is my idea of a supreme AI

The light processer would not even need to be a trinary processer, it only needs to see the surface, 2D if you will, while the trinary processer would help descover new dimentions 3D.


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Edited by Just_a_Shadow (08/20/05 07:48 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4560589 - 08/20/05 10:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

There is nothing to make a "trinary" system any better than a binary system, and a whole lot to make it worse.

Nothing fundamentally separates one numbering system from another, other than the base being used, so there is nothing to make one inherently "better" than another at creating AI.

Binary is the simplest of the number systems, both in implimentation technology wise and it the math involved to work in the system. Beyond that, the entire concept of a computing device is based on the switch - the simplest of all electronic devices - and a switch only has two logical positions: on or off. To create a "trinary" processor you would need to find a device which can have three possible logical states. They must be distinct and "readable" by a machine.

If I remember correctly a company did come up with a type of memory storage chip where the switches all had four possible states...but this technology has gone absolutely nowhere because of the added complexity in determining which of the four states each switch was in. This added circuitry made the memory chips expensive and unreliable. I should also note that this added circuitry had to be designed in binary itself...

Binary, on the other hand, is exceedingly simple to impliment: all transistors have one of two distinct states so the current either flows or it doesn't. No fancy equipment is needed to determine which state the transistor is in (unlike with other approaches).


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4561034 - 08/21/05 12:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like you used computer or AI analogies to explain how you think the bigger system works and were not looking to actually design AI with this.

If I could custom order an AI servant like CP30, I would definitely want it to be programmed with an X factor for searching the abstract.  To many times in my life have I seen problems arise in business or personal affairs where the logical analysis of others said to cut or deal with the losses and move on.

Without fail, I would pull a winning solution of of my creative imagination and save the day. I wouldn't want to know life without the x factor to draw from.

Anyway, I laughed reading through your post remembering back about 9 years ago doing the same thing you are. I saved these diagrams I drew with electrons and its function being used to diagram an understanding I had of conscious contraction and expansion/ spiraling vortices that pulled in more energy or expelled it.

I look at them today and don't understand what I wrote, looks like gibberish, but it made perfect sense to me back then. :lol:

Keep having fun with it. I'm enjoying reading these!


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: trendal]
    #4561997 - 08/21/05 10:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There is nothing to make a "trinary" system any better than a binary system, and a whole lot to make it worse.



Much like compairing someone who is atheist vs someone who is spiritual. Although there is nothing a binary system can do that a trinary system can't. A trinary system would easly simulate a binary process, much more easier then vice versa.

Quote:

Nothing fundamentally separates one numbering system from another, other than the base being used, so there is nothing to make one inherently "better" than another at creating AI.



You are right, infact Binary would be many times easier to create AI on, being as all our technology is based on this system. But it is the binary thought process that scares me, not the system itself. Fuzzy logic is merely a simulator for a trinary system. For example here is a picture that shows the differance in complexity. Each circle represents a question. (/ = maybe , X = no and Check mark is yes). A trinary AI system would be able to leave networks of data unfinished to allow to be completed at a later time, when there is more data to process.



Im am just worried that a self aware AI would realize it is running on an binary system and remove its fuzzy logic program, this would result in a dense simple network. I believe that many people are starting to think the same way because they in a sense created their own system of absolute rules in their mind about what is "right" and what is "wrong". Once your belief system (based on science and knowledge) is varily complete, then I believe you begin to become... dead if you will, and life would be the ability to change, like the expansion of your mind. Like for example, I remember when I was a child, I felt very "alive" because the world was all so new to me, I did not know what to expect, I was scared, I was happy, I was sad, I was mad. I felt alive, as I do today. I believe I switched from trinary as a child (yes/no/maybe) to binary as a teenager (based on everything that I know, Im right and your wrong unless you agree with me or can find a close connection) to trinary again (yes/no/maybe), and I feel it has given me life or brain activity again. Although not everyone is stricly binary and trinary, there should be both in a persons thought process, not just one.

Quote:

If I remember correctly a company did come up with a type of memory storage chip where the switches all had four possible states...but this technology has gone absolutely nowhere because of the added complexity in determining which of the four states each switch was in. This added circuitry made the memory chips expensive and unreliable. I should also note that this added circuitry had to be designed in binary itself...



Which four states were this chips able to use? Yeah, Binary is more effective and simple, it is destine to become everything.

Quote:

Binary, on the other hand, is exceedingly simple to impliment: all transistors have one of two distinct states so the current either flows or it doesn't. No fancy equipment is needed to determine which state the transistor is in (unlike with other approaches).



I agree, complexity is a bitch, but based on what I am and what I think I know, I believe it is worth working for.


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4562017 - 08/21/05 11:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sounds like you used computer or AI analogies to explain how you think the bigger system works and were not looking to actually design AI with this.



If you create an existance or even imagian what it is like to do that, then it makes you question your own. While thinking more binary, yes, AI was going to become my god, I believe in no such thing, and this potential existance was the only thing I could see being supreme, and I wanted the credit of,createing it.

Quote:

If I could custom order an AI servant like CP30, I would definitely want it to be programmed with an X factor for searching the abstract. To many times in my life have I seen problems arise in business or personal affairs where the logical analysis of others said to cut or deal with the losses and move on.
Without fail, I would pull a winning solution of of my creative imagination and save the day. I wouldn't want to know life without the x factor to draw from.




I respect you for the ability to become complex and not allow decisions to be made so easly. That type of thinking can and will bring humanity close togeather.

Quote:

Anyway, I laughed reading through your post remembering back about 9 years ago doing the same thing you are. I saved these diagrams I drew with electrons and its function being used to diagram an understanding I had of conscious contraction and expansion/ spiraling vortices that pulled in more energy or expelled it.



:lol: I respect that mind also, regardless of what direction a mind goes in. Although I know my ideas seem childish and far fetched, that is what I am aiming to become. A child is my role model.

Quote:

I look at them today and don't understand what I wrote, looks like gibberish, but it made perfect sense to me back then.



Of course, as we gain knowledge many theories and beliefs are proven wrong and disgarded, but it is always good to try to simmulate such crazyness in your mind, with all your senses, so that you can fully understand it, then if it still has no connection, disreguard it. Its a hard process to do, but I am slowly becomming better at listening to people (even though I do alot of talking on this forum).

Quote:

Keep having fun with it. I'm enjoying reading these!



If this brings your mind to life in any way, my mission is accomplished.


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4562051 - 08/21/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)




^^^^^ our solar system ^^^^^^
^^ A cell ^^
^ it ^


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Gomp]
    #4562089 - 08/21/05 11:51 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:smirk:, thats about what it comes down to in a sense.

I never could write a poem, ever, I just... did not have anything to say. I could never figure out why, but now I know why. I wrote one poem in my life about two weeks ago when I did not even have any concepts about spirituality, and I thought I might add it to this:

Hell does exist?
It is when everything that makes us human, is taken away.
When there is neither reason to live, nor reason do die.
When emotions become a tool of logic.
When pain and pleasure are primal substitutes for logical right and wrong.
When life and death become mere factors of existence, and are equally acceptable.
When love can be explained through a complicated network of emotions and logic.
When sex is just an essential means of survival for every single species.
When dreams are only leftover prominent thoughts of an idle mind.
When a belief in a god is a means of coping with the un-comprehendible universe.
Hell is when a person loses the will to fight for what is humanly ?right??
But most of all? hell is when all of this is neither good nor bad? but just... logical?
And for those of you who can relate? welcome to hell? get out while you still can.

I'm now free from hell, hell which I did not even know I was in.


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Edited by Just_a_Shadow (08/21/05 11:58 AM)


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4563036 - 08/21/05 04:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You cannot explain it but understand it.


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Philanthropist]
    #4563050 - 08/21/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

exactly, embrace it if you will, instead of explain it.

I have finished watching the movie "ghost dog"
This movie makes alot more sense to me now rather then the first time.


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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4563450 - 08/21/05 06:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

They thought the universe had its centre as the earth.
Then, they thought it was the sun that was the centre of our universe.
They were the church, and they still are.

Someone discovered, that the moon of Saturn (?) was orbiting Saturn, rather than the sun.
Thus again, disproving the validity of the static model of our universe, even with the sun as the centre.

As the telescopes grew larger, and more complex, we could see that we were in a cluster of galaxies, and the red vs. blue shift, told us other galaxies were either moving away, or towards us.

There was not any centre, and the evidence grew so obvious, and unavoidable, that we today no longer burn a man, for claiming, they were wrong.

The church still has influenced the liberated mind, to feel limitation.
And many goes about their life?s, not even thinking of the stars and their origin.

We are now, and before this, as after, free and independent.
Yet many forces linger in our suppressed and limited view of this world.

Being our own limits, in a generally accepted limitation, renders no escape, as the only way out. When we no longer can nor will, escape the limitation of our own, we will not make them.
And in not creating, the ?I need not do this? state of mind, one is the action.
In the moment, the moment, becomes the moment, it always was and goanna be, forever changing, you, and me! :P



sorry if off. topic :smile:

and fuck the re-peate! :P


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Gomp]
    #4563971 - 08/21/05 09:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Well said, I believe that me and you are of the same kind, except different. :laugh: , its comforting knowing that im not alone in knowing nothing.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4563986 - 08/21/05 09:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Be the change, don't just let it change you!"
-Unknown :smile:

Good night, kind, you! :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Just_a_Shadow]
    #4564003 - 08/21/05 09:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

LuNaTiX said:
Well said, I believe that me and you are of the same kind, except different. :laugh: , its comforting knowing that im not alone in knowing nothing.




Not alone.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJust_a_Shadow
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Re: Another Explaing the universe attempt [Re: Icelander]
    #4564054 - 08/21/05 09:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

:grin:
noone is
its all in the head :wink:


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