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InvisibleArp
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Alienation - Groups & individuals
    #4542944 - 08/16/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Me and a friend has been trying to convince eachother for
awhile what the meaning of the word "alienation" is.

My thesis if there are two groups of individuals and you
belong to one, but you are aware of the other group.

Then imho there is an alienation! Cause you don't belong
to that one group.

I apply the same to senses as taste, vision & hearing for instance.
When you separate these perceptions there is also an alienation.
They might be your perceptions but they are not ONE perception cause
you can tell them apart. You percieve with the senses.

So when you devide something in two. There is an alienation between
those two IF they are aware of eachother.

My friend claims that there may be two groups, and while your in
one of these group you are not alienated.

What do you think?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4542971 - 08/16/05 06:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I thought alienation meant that you keep someone/s separate from joining your group or are being kept from joining a group as in "being alienated".

To alienate is to leave someone out.

To be alienated is to feel left out or that you are being kept out when you try to get in or fit in.

That's how I understand and use the word.

Wonder if the word came from to mean to say, "you are alien to our world, you don't belong or fit in."


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OfflineMyOwnReality
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4542993 - 08/16/05 06:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

America is the Alienation. It is a nation completely made up of aliens, who have been on this continent for only a few generations. On that note.
Dictionary.com says alienation is:
A state of estrangement between the self and the objective world or between different parts of the personality.
also
1. The act of alienating or the condition of being alienated; estrangement: Alcoholism often leads to the alienation of family and friends.
2. Emotional isolation or dissociation.
3. Law. The act of transferring property or title to it to another.
as well as
Function: noun
1 : a withdrawing or separation of a person or a person's affections from an object or position of former attachment <alienation ? from the values of one's society and family ?S. L. Halleck>
2 : a state of abnormal function; especially : mental derangement : INSANITY
And who could forget:
n 1: the feeling of being alienated from other people [syn: disaffection, estrangement] 2: separation resulting from hostility [syn: estrangement] 3: (law) the voluntary and absolute transfer of title and possession of real property from one person to another; "the power of alienation is an essential ingredient of ownership" 4: the action of alienating; the action of causing to become unfriendly; "his behavior alienated the other students"
I hope that helps!
-MOR


--------------------
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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4543004 - 08/16/05 06:21 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

but imagine two groups. they arent one group. the other group is alienated from the other cause they don't share the same common identification.

Quote from some google searched definition:
"Alienation is estrangement or splitting apart"
"In addition to the general modernist or existential sense of alienation as a feeling of exclusion, unbelonging and loneliness"

So I make it that Alienation is synonymous to isolation.

The group fully aware of the other does not belong to that group.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: MyOwnReality]
    #4543011 - 08/16/05 06:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

the feeling of being alienated from other people




your people are aware of the other people and thereby alienated from them?

alienation as a result of the disconnection


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543017 - 08/16/05 06:27 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

you can put any meaning to any word you like. it's dangerous though because you will end up with an unintelligible mangle of a language.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: psychomime]
    #4543028 - 08/16/05 06:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yes but it's the one meaning as it should be practised that im looking for. Thereby my query :tongue:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543029 - 08/16/05 06:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I see what you are getting at. To not be a part of something is to be alienated from it. People can and do choose to alienate themselves from other people or groups all of the time.

Its just not an act inflicted onto someone. Its also one many choose for themselves.

I may choose to alienate myself from a group I use to belong too because, it no longer serves me.

I agree with what you are explaining to your friend. In your example, the one group is choosing to alienate itself from the other. It falls under what being alienated means.

Out of curiousity, what was your friends point of view. He may have a unique view on it that I didn't consider.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543033 - 08/16/05 06:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMO you're using the word too generally. when in doubt as to a meaning i go to my trusty dictionary. It is better to be more specific than general. so, i would say alienation applies to the negative individual condition alone.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: psychomime]
    #4543043 - 08/16/05 06:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psychomime said:
IMO you're using the word too generally. when in doubt as to a meaning i go to my trusty dictionary. It is better to be more specific than general. so, i would say alienation applies to the negative individual condition alone.




That is what I did and was my conclusion.
But think of several individuals as one mind, as one conciousness.
Some act as of one. Like your perception they are one perception unaware of the disconnection from each other.


Edited by Arp (08/16/05 06:39 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543049 - 08/16/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Alienation: Emotional isolation or dissociation.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineNinjamutantballe
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4543053 - 08/16/05 06:40 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I don't believe a group can be alienated, whether or not the people in this group feel alienated towards the rest of the world. A feeling of alienation means you feel alone and left out. If lots of people gather in a group and feel left out together, then they are not left out, they are connected - thereof the lack of alienation. It's a question of context, but still I don't believe such thing as a "collective alienation" is possible in the sense of how the word was meant to be used.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: psychomime]
    #4543055 - 08/16/05 06:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Like yourself. You are one mind with several perceptions.
The sense tells you that they are yours and they are different.
There lays the alienation between the senses. You think you see,
you think you hear, you think you smell. Everything being filtered
and organized by your brain in a more complex way than if you just were.



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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543069 - 08/16/05 06:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

fair enough. I understand your explanation now. you're still using it as a synonym for seperate though. alienation generally has negative emotional connotations. I wouldn't say my sense of hearing feels anything let alone alienation from the other senses.


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InvisibleArp
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: psychomime]
    #4543087 - 08/16/05 06:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

But your mind is alienated from your senses. This is where im getting. Your hearing might not be alienated (aware) of your smelling, but you as the observer are aware of these differences.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Alienation - Groups & individuals [Re: Arp]
    #4543510 - 08/16/05 08:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

you are ignoring the emotional connotations of the word. my mind may be seperate from my senses but it is not alienated. you are making up your own definition of the word.


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