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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539511 -

Naturally, those are untestable by physical means...

This is classic TB...

Make a wild claim, then when someone points out the glaring flaw, change the claim to something untestable to support the original flawed claim. :shake:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539512 -

You make it sound like there have been millions of studies, heh...

To be honest, I have only seen traces of a few 'not conclusive enough for evidence'-resulted studies from decades ago mentioned.

Care to show all of these studies you refer to where "EVERY SINGLE PERSON studied throughout the history of scientific study of OOBEs had been summarily unable to tell the investigators what is in the closed box by the door, what is in the next room, what is on the roof (all objects placed as part of the experiment)??"

Not only that, as I mentioned, OOBEs - or for this purpose, more commonly called Astral Projections - are perceived to occur outside of the physical reality. This is not possible to test for... :smile:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539523 -

Hey, I've already said, I'm not taking sides on this...

I am only offering up my view based on my unbiased surverying of experience reports...

Why is it that you always seem to get so 'worked up' over such details? I have said I have never had one, and have no reason to believe they exist. I also have to reason to believe they are imaginary. :smile:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539539 -

You make it sound like there have been millions of studies, heh...

There have been more than enough controlled studies to see that OOBEs are imagined.

This does not count the thousands of near deaths in hospitals where the patient claims leaving their body but somehow can never report seeing something in a room they could not have been in other than by magic.

Why do you keep dancing around the issue rather than step on it. Explain why NOT ONCE SINGLE claimant has been able to make an accurate report of what's in the next room. A rational explanation for this finding would go a lot farther than constantly evading this one salient point.

Care to show all of these studies

deff, after all this time, you still don't understand that you are the one making the claims here and so you are the one who has to show OOBEs exist, not I that they don't.

Philosophy 101.

This is not possible to test for...

How convenient...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539545 -

unbiased surverying of experience reports

How can the person reporting the experience (you) be unbiased?  :rolleyes:

[dip scratches head]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539555 -

I never made a claim as I have repeatedly asserted...

I am unsure if these are real...

I have never had one.... ....... ..............

I am wondering myself...

And so, I ask for studies backing your claim that... "EVERY SINGLE PERSON studied throughout the history of scientific study of OOBEs had been summarily unable to tell the investigators what is in the closed box by the door, what is in the next room, what is on the roof (all objects placed as part of the experiment)??"


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539569 -

You just don't get it. [sighs]

If a genuine OOBE were ever documented, it would be bigger news than the new pope because documented magic would trump every news story in the history of mankind. It would make 9/11 seem like a trafic report.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539598 -

I do 'get it'.. I never made a claim that they have... I realize they haven't...

All I asked was for a few links to these numerous studies you've often referred to, that have shown EVERY SINGLE PERSON to be false. I just don't think there's been too many, atleast that I could find, and I'm a little curious on the issue.

Afterall, don't you have to back up claims? :lol:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539685 -

All I asked was for a few links to these numerous studies you've often referred to

Eye, dios mio!

One more time: the claimant, not the skeptic, is the one who provides the evidence. Otherwise, I would say that there is a Giant Spaghetti Monster on Alpha Centauri and if you don't agree, you better provide evidence that there is no such monster.

But, since you insist, for starters:

Surveys show that about 15% to 20% of the population have had an OBE at some time during their life (Blackmore, 1982).

That's a lot of people. If that large a fraction of the population has had OOBEs, then at least ONE should have been incontrovertibly documented by now, eh? Just one guy reporting clearly what is in the next room?

I mean, airliners crash far less often than people have OOBEs, and they're caught on video all the time.

Here are some more links. Not to a list of individual studies, but more than enough to chew on, especially since I'm not the claimant to the paranormal:

http://skepdic.com/obe.html

http://skepdic.com/nde.html


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539706 -

What did I claim?  :confused:

How am I the claimant?  :confused:

I would say, you made a claim against OOBEs... and so now you are providing evidence... thanks :smile:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539722 -

How am I the claimant?

Not you specifically.

I'm saying that it's not up to me to show proof of something not existing, it's up to the person saying it exists (not necessarily you) to show the proof.

You keep asking me for proof that OOBEs are imagined, but let it slide when someone else claims they are real.

Bias! And that's what I'm taking issue with.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539816 -

No, dano stated his proof was his personal experience.

I can't ask him to show me that  :tongue:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539830 -

I think any statement needs a proof.
the person saying "i don't know if they exist or not" would not need proof, but both those who say "I know they exist" and "they don't exist" need proof because both are rather specific statements.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4539844 -

So, if I state that there are no Giant Spaghetti Monsters on Alpha Centauri, would you demand proof?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539857 -

Yes, you are saying something you haven't verified.
Chances are you are right, because nobody ever mentioned such a thing existing.

Chances of existence of such a thing are 1 in a very large number.
But they are not zero to infinity. And because of that you can not say such a definitive statement. You need proof.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539860 -

No, but if you said "A study found there were no giant spaghetti monsters..." I would laugh and then ask for the source. :smile:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539868 -

No, but if you said "A study found there were no giant spaghetti monsters..." I would laugh and then ask for the source.

Oh yeah? Let me find a source. I'll be right back! :seeya:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: deff]
    #4539872 -

Don't get diploid going about proving a negative.. haha... :smile:

Anyways, diploid, I think you've gotten a little too accustomed to the role of the skeptic.

I mean, heaven forbid you should have to provide proof yourself, something that you've gotten used to demanding while you scrutinize mystical claims :lol:


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Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: Diploid]
    #4539875 -

I'm sure you even believe in that: that there are no such monsters there.

Not even you are immune to baseless beliefs


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Heres the best answer to all these paranormal debates! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4539891 -

I'm sure you even believe in that: that there are no such monsters there.

Of course not. I was just joking. There are no Giant Spaghetti Monsters on Alpha Centauri.

Eveybody knows they live in Loch Ness.  :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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