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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Does debate get us anywhere?
    #3168003 - 09/23/04 01:47 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I've noticed that in the vast majority of debates here, in PAL, and elsewhere, that no matter how good or bad someone's arguments are, no one goes away feeling any different about their position. It doesn't seem to change anything in the world, even in cases where people do change their mind. I find that I debate for purely selfish reasons. I simply enjoy it. But it doesn't seem to be very productive.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3168037 - 09/23/04 01:54 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I have had my mind changed in several instances.  I enjoy debate for the sake of debate, too, but I think it's also productive.  At least in my case.  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: Frog]
    #3168060 - 09/23/04 01:59 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I have had my mind changed in several instances.

As have I...  :thumbup:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineUnenlightenedOne
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3168087 - 09/23/04 02:04 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Often times no.lmao.People find it "logical" to believe what they do no matter how different it may be to any other belief.Because all the people involved usually have come to their belief by the logic of their experiences,knowledge,etc...,they do not change their minds often and usually stick totheir original idea because to them it makes the most sense based on what they know or have experienced.

However debate can be very effective/productive if people are open minded.This isnt to say any of the involved parties in a debate are right or wrong.


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Do not desire to reach a high level.Rather work without thought of reward to iron out flaws and impurities in one's self for the sake of one's self.When one has done this one needs not to desire anymore. http://www.lifeforceonlinestore.com/yc/


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: UnenlightenedOne]
    #3168100 - 09/23/04 02:06 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

i think in real passionate debates, the poeple who benifit are the ones watching as opposed to the debaters. so yes i do think debate gets us somewhere.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: Frog]
    #3168111 - 09/23/04 02:09 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I've had my mind changed several times as well, especially in PAL, even to the point of changing my vote for this November(was going to vote for Kerry, now voting for the Libertarian candidate, Michael Badnarik), but even then it doesn't seem all that productive. I don't seem to be bringing about much more change now as a libertarian than I was as a liberal(in fact, I've moved from a relatively mainstream point of view to a small minority, thus having less influence). I suppose there have been some ideas which have been brought up in debates which made me think differently about life, and given me a better attitude, but usually such ideas are not diametrically opposed to mine, but are instead ideas which I have not been exposed to.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3168158 - 09/23/04 02:19 AM (13 years, 4 days ago)

"I don't seem to be bringing about much more change now as a libertarian than I was as a liberal"

Well, you've possibly heard of "the wings of a butterfly", right?  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3169577 - 09/23/04 12:55 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

>>>>no one goes away feeling any different about their position

Sorry but I think this is an error in your statement. People do indeed learn in debating even if they have stuck ignorant on the main theme. I have seen people learn stuff and have learnt myself even whilst having the most heated arguements.


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3169616 - 09/23/04 01:07 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

I tend to use debating/argument mainly to refine my own ideas. I used to do this without even noticing, but since it was brought to my attention I can see how I do it and why I do it.

Sometimes one mind just doesn't come to the "correct" conclusion, yet can become quite convinced that it HAS in fact reached a correct solution. I learned long ago that I am not infallible, so just because I have used all my abilities to come to a solution does not make it the correct one. The next logical step is peer-review. What I have ended up doing, before I even know I was doing it, is to propose an idea as if I thought it were already correct and then gauge the validity of the idea by the reactions of others.

The result is either a (hopefully) more well-refined theory or a discarded one due to new disproving evidence.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3169641 - 09/23/04 01:17 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

> no one goes away feeling any different about their position.

Not true, for me at least. I often debate things from positions that I might not agree with in order to try and understand all sides of an argument... so for me, debating helps me learn and understand a topic rather than change my position about a topic... I try not to take absolute positions on anything.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3170004 - 09/23/04 02:53 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

i do not, not agree nor do i agree.
man im confused! do I even believe? hehe
what seperates a debate from a dialog?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: Gomp]
    #3170020 - 09/23/04 03:00 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

i use debate as a tool for testing my own beliefs and learning from others. Even the stupidest or most disagreeable person occasionaly drops something that i consider good and i can selectively choose what ideas i find usefull and those that i find useless.

Debate helps us get our own ideas clear in our heads, it gives us practice in articulating our own beliefs and it can help point out weaknesses in them we havent previously seen.


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Does debate get us anywhere? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3171164 - 09/23/04 07:50 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The productivity occurs later when you are thinking about what was said.


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