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OfflineScarfmeister
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when people go absolutely insane
    #4465950 - 07/28/05 09:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder what happens to a human when he turns from a normal well adjusted person to a raving psychopath that cannibalizes his kids or whatever. What kind of though process does he experience before totally losing it? I suppose it happens gradually but one must wonder if they are aware of the change in personality.

Do you think they they take pause amids the madness and just think to them selves "damn i really am bat shit insane" or do the reptilian brain take over completely?

I was once on the verge of what i think was a panic attack and it was just the most awful feeling i have ever had. I could literally feel my mind slipping and my thoughts spiraling downward to craziness before i managed to center myself. I always figured it must feel something like that when a man looses it.

Do you think some people just snap or is it something that has been gnawing at them for years? I read about all these totally bizarre and insane things people do and i wonder.... WTF?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4465974 - 07/28/05 09:21 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

there is snapping, but that is just like chemistry maybe.
and then there is the insane habit thing:
and that is like always changing the rules of some game that you think you are in, adn have the right to edit the rule sets for some god given reason.
as if a paranoid delusion sets in that this is all really just a game
and the rulses can be made and unmade at will;
which is not that insane when you think about it either.
so
what can you say about it?

maybe just do your best


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4466014 - 07/28/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This assumes that there is one reason or way to go apeshit.

There's not.

Some people do it with psychosis, some maintain control and the ability to reason. Some do it in a ravenous frenzy, others, do it calmly and slowly. Some are filled with millions of emotions, others are almost emotionless.

It's not just one thing.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4466408 - 07/28/05 11:12 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I watched my brother slip slowly into schizophrenia...it was frightening. Contrary to popular belief most mentally ill people do not kill children or engage in cannibalism. I would let my mentally ill brother watch my kids for a day with no compunction. He would (and has before) do a good job.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinedeff
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4466616 - 07/28/05 11:53 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"I'm not crazy, you're all crazy!"

I think to the person, confident in their view of the world, the vast majority of people would seem so obviously and pathetically wrong. This is assuming they still have rational-enough thought processes to understand society and contrast it to themselves.

I've gotten so far into philosophy and psychedellics before, and I mean really freaking far (and not far as in advanced, but far as in removed) to the point where carrying on conversations was a challenge, as was even being in public. I could almost see the guidelines of artificial society, like the way one's expected to talk, walk, smile, the correct answers to common small talk, etc. It seemed sick to me, as I 'knew there was so much more that everyone was missing'. I felt as if, since I had this vantage point, not above but paralell to humanity, that I was responsible for it shaping around the truth that so many were blind to. The most obvious truth that would not stop staring me in the face no matter where I was or who I was with. I had no personality, as this was false, why stride away from truth afterall...

Now I still hold on to a lot of this, but I decided I needed to stay within the system of 'normalness' - atleast temporarily, so I even went to the extreme of willing myself to forget things that prevented this. To a degree this worked, I have built a false self for use "in the machine", so I can hold a job and talk about the weather, that kind of stuff. But the 'truth' is hard to escape, atleast what seems like truth, who knows really...

Now this doesn't interfer with my life at all anymore, and I wouldn't change my situation for anything. But I think I can understand how more irrational concepts and worldviews would alienate some into utter "insanity". It's a gradual process of course...


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OfflinejBEArWAuKeE
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: deff]
    #4467899 - 07/29/05 06:14 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
"I'm not crazy, you're all crazy!"





I think a lot of people have that kind of secret inner-life, some hidden belief (aka "truth") that seems more real than day-to-day life. I remember a time when I worried that my world view was straying so far from the norm that I might lose the capacity to communicate altogether.

I would guess a lot of people who "snap" and do bizarre or violent things are suffering paranoid delusions, so they probably see something is wrong but believe the problem or threat is outside of them. Extreme manic episodes have some pretty bizarre outcomes, too--one of my psych profs had an in-law who filled his house w/ drifts of gadgets and knick-knacks on a $10,000 manic shopping spree.


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"This is absolutely the most exciting time we could have possibly hoped to be alive, and things are just starting." --Dreamer


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4467971 - 07/29/05 07:21 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I have seen two people go insane, one a housemate and the other a business associate. Both events were very much alike, so I knew what was going on the second time around. Basically, it started out very slow with slight personality changes. In the first case, it took me nearly half a year before I started to really notice what was going on. It is easy to look back and see the changes, but I never really noticed them while they were happening.

Paranoia was probably the first big change that I noticed in one case. He would tell me how the phone company was tapping the phone lines and how the government is listening to cell phone and how he is being followed, etc. He was convinced that he had a virus on his computer that the phone company somehow snuck in there over the phone line. He was worried that people were poisoning his food. I think his problems were stress induced, and he finally managed to regain his hold on reality.

The other one, which happened first, progressed much more slowly. The guy started to convince himself that he was the messiah, sent to lead the people to salvation. He was convinced that he could work miracles. We would be driving down the road and he would say something like, "I will prove it to you... there will be a cop car waiting at the next stop light." We would get to the next stop light, and no cop car... but five blocks later we would pull up next to one at the stop light and he would say, "See. Its real." There are a zillion cops in the city, you are gonna be next to one every other light... but he wouldn't see it that way.

The second guy really got bad for a while. His family came and got him and checked him into a hospital somewhere. The last I heard, he had moved to Isreal and was walking the streets preaching about the coming of the end. (This guy was very intelligent, had a phd in physics and had worked for nist for a while.) And trust me, it is no fun at all trying to explain to somebodies mother why you are not responsible for their mental problems when the mother is looking for nothing more than somebody to blame.

In neither case did the person just "snap". Both had a fairly long drawn out ramp-up to the really insane behaviors.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineI2ancid
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Seuss]
    #4468163 - 07/29/05 09:41 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"This assumes that there is one reason or way to go apeshit." My new favorite quote


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I went to st thomas and camped out ontop of the island... Despite my entire family being poor all my life, the land is priceless.
I was chased by haitians in the main city charlotte amalie when my girlfriend and I got some cocaine for free in a bar and mixed it with alcohol, to form a stronger drug. With such confidence at 2am, we walked the 4-5 or so miles down to the beach where the african slaves lie like lions waiting on tourist prey.


The war isen't on drugs... the war is on the causes that influence people to abuse drugs. drug-abuse is a by-product of the system and much like radioactive waste occurs from utilizing nuclear power, drug addicts with drug-problems will need to be properly disposed of, like the decaying radioactive waste produced from nuclear energy. -i2ancid


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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: I2ancid]
    #4468185 - 07/29/05 10:01 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I like Carl Roger's view on things. http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/rogers.html

Quote:

Perceptual distortion is a matter of reinterpreting the situation so that it appears less threatening. It is very similar to Freud's rationalization. A student that is threatened by tests and grades may, for example, blame the professor for poor teaching, trick questions, bad attitude, or whatever. The fact that sometimes professors are poor teachers, write trick questions, and have bad attitudes only makes the distortion work better: If it could be true, then maybe it really was true! It can also be much more obviously perceptual, such as when the person misreads his grade as better than it is.

Unfortunately for the poor neurotic (and, in fact, most of us), every time he or she uses a defense, they put a greater distance between the real and the ideal. They become ever more incongruous, and find themselves in more and more threatening situations, develop greater and greater levels of anxiety, and use more and more defenses.... It becomes a vicious cycle that the person eventually is unable to get out of, at least on their own.

Rogers also has a partial explanation for psychosis: Psychosis occurs when a person's defense are overwhelmed, and their sense of self becomes "shattered" into little disconnected pieces. His behavior likewise has little consistency to it. We see him as having "psychotic breaks" -- episodes of bizarre behavior. His words may make little sense. His emotions may be inappropriate. He may lose the ability to differentiate self and non-self, and become disoriented and passive.



I don't think this explains every insane person, but I think it's good reasoning as to how somebody could get to that point.

I have a friend back in CA who is paranoid about cops. He's been arrested 17 times. He is constantly in some kind of trouble with the law (mostly for marijuana, even though he's legalized). It's mostly small stuff that never sticks, but the frequency of the cops messing with him, along with a few other coincidences, make him truly beleive that he's being watched. There's a cop car that often parks across the street from his house. He thinks it's there observing him. We got pulled over randomly one night because an off duty cop saw us take a corner too fast and thought that we were speeding away from shooting paintballs at a house and the off duty cop (which really did happen, but it wasn't us). He was pulled out of the car violently by this cop in civillian clothes who was holding a wine bottle cocked back. He was convinced that the cop later shot himself with a paintball gun, in the arm, to give him a reason for pulling us over, and that his original intention was to catch us with drugs. Obviously he's dealt with lots of bullshit, including that event, which I was there to witness, but that doesn't mean he's being watched. He's paranoid, imo. He accepts that he may be paranoid, but he still beleives it.

People beleive irrational things all the time. When it goes too far and you let it get to you, reality breaks down.


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Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.


Edited by hobbitcg (07/29/05 10:11 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Seuss]
    #4468243 - 07/29/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

He was convinced that he could work miracles.

We have about a dozen of those who regulary post here...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Swami]
    #4468273 - 07/29/05 10:48 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

it would be a miracle if we could actually communicate
sometimes I think I am doing that, must be nuts.


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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4468379 - 07/29/05 11:43 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Im really partial to Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I think the only flaw with that definition is that it suggests that conscious 'thoughts' always come into the picture. But that isnt really what you are talking about with people becoming psychopaths. Becoming that type of murderer requires more than just insanity, it takes a certain kind of hatred, usually rooted in the self. Psychotherapists address many social and sexual disorders that have to do with violence (many of which are commonly associated with schizophrenia jfyi) by resolving identity satisfaction issues. All those jokes about "didnt your momma hold you enough?" Thats the general area psychotherapists often attribute raving psychopathy to.


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Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Seuss]
    #4468441 - 07/29/05 12:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The second guy really got bad for a while. His family came and got him and checked him into a hospital somewhere. The last I heard, he had moved to Isreal and was walking the streets preaching about the coming of the end. (This guy was very intelligent, had a phd in physics and had worked for nist for a while.) And trust me, it is no fun at all trying to explain to somebodies mother why you are not responsible for their mental problems when the mother is looking for nothing more than somebody to blame.






That's really interesting. this other guy is calling himself Elijah and many people believe him. Did you really know him?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/577180.stm

I have a bipolar sister. My wife has a schitzophrenic brother.

Madness isn't funny. But that said, I think most modern people have neurosis which balance each other out. But people with mental illness have some particular neurosis which overtakes their mind. Then they start progessively slipping into recalcitrant patterns of thinking from which they are not able to overcome.

As my wife's father has said. "regular people can make new thoughts, but mentally ill people cannot make new thoughts." The ill cannot move on and progress through reason or any other sort of thinking to new levels of wholeness. They instead get caught in fractured orientations from which they cannot escape.


And for which there is no bottom. Mental illness can progress to any imaginable level of hellish detail. And as such it's terrifying and saddening, and the mentally ill, of all people, deserve compassion. Imagine a burn on your arm. Then imagine the burn on your arm growing worse every day in your mind, and you cannot do anything but it consumes your entire world until you are the burn on your arm, and you are taking over the whole world as the burning arm man of the world. And then you get more into it where the whole world has become the burn and you are the scab on the burn. And all this makes sense, and you feel it. That's what being crazy can be like. It just doesn't make sense. It's a backsliding into an incalcuable internal logic which sees no wholeness as oriented to other people's general awareness.


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...or something







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OfflineGomp
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: eve69]
    #4468639 - 07/29/05 01:04 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

""do the reptilian brain take over completely?""

Yeah, blame the brains.. :P


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OfflineStoned_Druid
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4468875 - 07/29/05 02:17 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Usually it's just people snapping or people bottling shit up for to long.


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"Sanity is for the Weak"



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Invisiblebudsicle
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Stoned_Druid]
    #4469301 - 07/29/05 03:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

such stages of deep profound darkness and lack of insight from where real psychopaths emerge are really hard to communicate via words

mind being nothing but infinite confusing contradictions created by conditioning and ones life experiences, and one is unable to let go of this and gets sucked deeper into the well of chaos where there is no bottom..


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OfflineGomp
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: budsicle]
    #4469955 - 07/29/05 05:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

hahahaha


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4470388 - 07/29/05 07:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it would be a miracle if we could actually communicate
sometimes I think I am doing that, must be nuts.




That's the million dollar quote of the week!

On the subject, veritas once posted that the word insanity was made for legal prosecution purposes. It is used to determine if someone had the mental awareness to know they were breaking the law and doing wrong or not. Someone who can be certified as legally insane doesn't know right from wrong according to the laws.

That makes anyone who thinks its right and okay to use illegal drugs even though they know its illegal and wrong in the eyes of the law legally insane like someone who thought it was okay to commit a murder and saw nothing wrong with it at the time.

The word and its definition was created to be used when determining if someone was in their right mind or not when they committed a crime. Right mind just means that you agree with and understand that our laws are the right way to live.  If you don't then you are not in your "right" mind-insane.

Why it gets used here in S&P I have no idea as this forum is not a court of law with jail sentencing powers.

I think people use it when they want to say someone is out of their mind. Some people may have thoughts that are out of the boundaries of my mind. That makes them out of my mind not out of theirs. If they have the thoughts in their minds and think they are right then they must be in their right minds. Where else would they or could they be?

I may have thoughts out of the boundaries of others minds and think I am right for me. If I am minding those thoughts then I am in my right mind even though I am out of theirs.

Maybe what they mean to say is that others are out of their right minds, meaning they are not thinking right. Right according to whom?

Lets say that someone here starts posting off their meds and writes stuff that is beyond every ones mind. If they typed it, it came from their mind. Its just beyond or out of our ability to understand it.

They are put on meds if they are told that their thoughts are not right based on what the courts determine to be right/sane.

Who here agrees with the idea that what is common or normal is always right? Who here agrees that all of our man made laws are right? 

here's a funny scene;

"But mooooooom, all the other kids were doing it and said it was okay." Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right.

2 years latter at the shrink, "No one else has those thoughts son. because yours are different, they are wrong. We will put you on meds to make you like everyone else so you can have right thoughts and be right again" :what:

What I am saying here is that it looks like people tend to call something nuts, crazy, insane or wacko when it is out of their line of thinking what is right. The majority power or the one with the most guns is always right.  Being right or sane has not much to do with being in your truth or a truth or whats right for you.

Anyway, that's how it works here on planet earth.

We prize people for thinking for themselves and teach our children to do it and then when they do, some get put on meds or thrown in jail.

Whats the message? "we want you to think for yourself the same way we think when we are not around to tell you how to think.:what:

It's a funny thing to observe if you look at it sideways.

Swami, even you justify the medicinal use of pot. You could cop an insanity plea and maybe win with a court prosecuting you for using it. You can say you are out of your right mind if you believe it is safe and in your right to use. Do you consider yourself legally insane? Would you lie to the courts to get off easy, say it was wrong and apologize. That would make you psychotic. If you tell the truth you are insane.

Can you see the humor in this?

I may have gotten a little off topic however, this post seems like one where we get to sit back and examine those crazy people who are not like us and judge them for being out of our line of whats right thought and behavior. They think we are nuts. Who's right? Yup, the majority power or the one with the most guns.

Some cultures had cannibalism as their right norm. We thinks its sick and insane behavior for a normal person to eat other humans. What the fuck is it really first?

Why not also explore how right and wrong are created and enforced. That would be an interesting add on topic. Who gets to decide for eveyone else and how did that happen and is it good bad or both?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSerioOria
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Registered: 07/23/05
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Re: when people go absolutely insane [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #4470695 - 07/29/05 08:06 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

honestly, perception is what makes up our reality, we can never fully see reality as it actually is (see, hear, feel, experience if you will)

we all live inside our own heads, i could be a paranoid skitzophreniac (still cant spell it right) and not know it, the only evidence i have for my existence... is nothing, i dont blame most people when they are paranoid, their perception of reality is just a little different than ours, perhaps they really are experiencing these things we call them crazy for, and it is REAL to THEM, as they said on teen titans (lol) 'I dont know if slate is real, but hes real to robin and thats all that matters, the stress of his brain is destroying his body' and they need to be calmed down.. or maybe its a chemical problem.. i have problems believing the norm to be correct, anytime that a large enough group of people is into something, i will back away, mainly because, throughout my life i have been right while others have been wrong. Hell if i know but reality isn't for me to decide, its for each individual.

and it does seem that most cases of skitzophrenia(sry, sp) are from stress, in children many are abused ridiculously, to the point where their minds have to make defenses for themselves, thats where that particular disorder comes from.. Now those people that just go apeshit i dont know, freaks me out sometimes that a person can snap, just like that.

Quote:

There ?is? a certain place where one?s mind is free to float in an infinite sea of forever. One?s ?mind? is as much a reality as the physical world that we cling to. The mind and the physical are not two separate entities on different planes of existence. There is an infinite fractal architecture linking the mind and the body woven into itself forever. The entity we know as consciousness is a combination of our minds taking stock of the ?real world? and the real world creating tangible realisations of what the mind would perceive to be ?true?. The idea of forever lends itself to an infinite void of conceptualisation that can only be countered by stopping to realise the moment that is ?now?.




i agree full heartedly with 'getinjiggywithit'

perception my friends


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Live every day like it is your first
or
Live every day like it is your last
My ArT!!


Edited by SerioOria (07/29/05 08:19 PM)


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