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The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought
    #4366571 -

When you observe something - a tree, your wife, your neighbor, the stars at night, the bird in the sky, or anything else -, there's always on one hand the observer, the thinker, the one who is living the experience, the one who is searching, and on the other hand there is the thing that is observed.

The observer and the object observed;The thinker and the thought.

So there is always a division. It is this division that constitutes time. This division is the essence of conflict, each conflict gives birth to an imperious need to overtake the conflict, to beat it, to avoid it, to act upon it, and all this activity implies time....
As long as there will be division, time will continue, and time is suffering.

Any man who desires to understand the end to suffering needs to understand this, discover it and go beyond the duality between thinker and thought, between the subject and the object of experience.

In other words, when there is division between the observer and the object observed, time intervenes

What, then, must be done? Do you understand the question?
I see, inside of me, the observer, always on the look-out, constantly judging, censuring, accepting, rejecting, disciplining, controling, modeling. This observer, this thinker, is the result of thought, its an obvious fact. It is the thought that comes first, not the thinker. If there was no thought at all, there would be no thinker, there would only be a perfect, absolute attention.

:heart:


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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4366789 -



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4366831 -

objectification is like hopping out of the current gestalt, or off the membrane,
of course in the next moment, the last one peels off anyhow, unless you are stacking them together with jhanas or entheogen.

so I would say you are right, by looking at a different time, and trying to establish reference points or relationships, it becomes otherfied; particulary, other-time-i-fied.

if you can accept the thinking process as part of the current gestalt it becomes one and fits as a glove.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4367207 -

If there was no thought at all, there would be no thinker, there would only be a perfect, absolute attention.
___________________________________________________

I have never met one person who can sustain this state of no thought.  So  who lives this?

I have however met and know people who live love, and experience joy and wonder, laughter and ease in their experience of time.  They may experience suffering but they don't make a habit of it. :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: Icelander]
    #4367500 -

I believe that the division that you point out, between obvserver and object, is simply an illusion. The only thing that that truly exists is the EXPERIANCE of observation.

Without the observer, the object has no context, and does not exist.

Without the object, there is nothing to observe, and the observer has no context, and does not exist.

Only EXPERIANCE exists independently. It is the only truth, it is the only thing that we can have unwavering faith in; Our own experiance...


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http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: dr0mni]
    #4367604 -

you are also talking about oscillation between 2 frames

one is as a vice to grip an object (in it's gestalt) and one to review it('s fading shadow) by standing aside (in it's gestalt) and looking back.

both are really combined observer and object coexisting and sharing in an energy bouquet sequence that is magnificent.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

Edited by redgreenvines (07/03/05 11:37 PM)

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4368974 -

MarkostheGnostic said:



"Throughout the book, Epstein writes off our concept of self as "just an idea that we dream up while young". As time goes on, Epstein says, we become more and more attached to this idea, and try to protect it (see skandha), leading to all sorts of problems. Also: "Since it is just a fixed idea ? and one made up by a child, no less ? it cannot possibly be an accurate representation of an ever-changing human living from moment to moment. As such, while preserving this self-concept, we are in a constant battle to defend something which is indefensible."

So, he comes to an conclusion: "The issue here, of course, is that defending the indefensible is no way to be happy. Therefore, we should stop the deceiving ourselves and really examine this issue."

He concludes that the solution to all this is: "to simply drop this ridiculous concept of 'who we are', and to start being what we are! Who we are is not a fixed image, but an ongoing story. It is not only new in this very moment, but will be new again, in the next moment."

:thumbup:

This isn't exactly what i was saying though, but it can easily be tied along with it.

I think what we're seeing today in modern philosophy is a fusion between Eastern and Western thoughts..

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: Icelander]
    #4368980 -

Icelander said:
I have never met one person who can sustain this state of no thought. So who lives this?



What it you did, without realizing it? Its not like such a person has a tag on their face saying they have emancipated themselves from thought. I don't think that it is something that is obviously apparent. You have to take a close look...

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4369023 -

one of the biggest problems I have in discussing this, even with myself, is to approach a stable and rational perspective from which to address the issues of thought, ego, object and consciousness etc.

when I do hold a stable perspective, what I am looking at is, a mind/human/self that takes in everything together during moments of life (gestalt frames or citta/mind-moments) and as one moment fades another begins.

The links between these frames become upgraded into memory traces (engrams) facilitating associative thought and memory.

If I hold that perspective, I can face almost any twist and turn - almost any conceptual experiential and philosophical problem.

considering the arising and fading of gestalts, each of the following fall into place:
thought - any series of recalled gestalt fragments
ego - a macro of sequenced masks (learned responses) which can fully operate the human body (brain too of course),
object - any gestalt fragment in mind,
and consciousness - the process of the arising and fading of gestalts including associations.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4369060 -

The links between these frames become upgraded into memory traces (engrams) facilitating associative thought and memory

Could you develop this a little?

And what do you think is the cause to the arising and fading of different gestalts? And in what way are these gestalts different one from the other? Or are they essentially the same?

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4369112 -

a movie produces a seamless illusion of reality in 2 dimensions using photographic frames.

gestalt frames come into a consciousness from all directions (3-d) and from the nonvisual senses and from internal associative overlays which can happen on each sense channel.

the screen, to take the analogy one more step, is the cerebral cortex, upon which the projections take place (neurologists actually call it projection - when an axon for a sensor in the eye or ear terminates its projection to a specific point on the cortex)

http://www.wirescript.net/magazine/lv9901/lvfig5.jpg

while an uneven distribution of cerebral real estate has already been mapped it is easy to visualize how it is sensible - note vision goes to visual cortex and hearing to the auditory cortex - these depictions are just somatosensory.



the points of activation are like electrical raindrops on a pond's surface, and an interferrence pattern ensues creating some spikeing energy areas where waves collide originating from the co-temporal electric raindrops of activation (all the stuff that happens together).

all the major exited points get co-linked together into an engram of co-temporal event memory on all sensory channels. This linking involves basal ganglia (thalamus etc.) which receives electrical activity from the interference patern and grows stronger connectivity only with all active pathways fromthat moment (creating the analog of a holographic memory)

in a future moment when spikes occur in some of the same areas, a shadow of a previous gestalt is recalled, unfurling beyond the small common area bringing back associations that were relevent at an earlier time.

that is the briefest way for me to explain the whole system which really deserves endless study.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4369418 -

The faster you have to make a decision, the more the duality dissolves...
I work in a very stressfull job and have most time only milliseconds for decisions. Then, you can only hope, that you have developed your 'thinkers-part' good enough, so that it will fit the thoughts :smile:
Then, you and your thoughts become (almost) one.
(But my heart beats unregularily after and I love to come to seperation again with a good hit of some herbs at the evening :grin:)


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4369671 -

the bits are still bits inside of you, but when working that way you become one with your task at work.
you become one of the working bits to make a functioning totality.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4369796 -

Thats totally supercrazy :grin:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4369846 -

This is, as i've told you in the past, extremely interesting stuff.
How far have the neurologists gone in the study of this psychological phenemona? What are the still unanswered questions?

I'm taking up biology next year in college, I'm hoping i'll be motivated and interested enough to become a researcher in this domain, that or genetics.

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4370007 -

I have not seen any equipment developed that shows the circular e-wave propagation on the cerebral cortex.
displaying the actual interference pattern occurring in real time (or slowed down for our perceptions) due to known sensory input (and other mentation) is an area of technical expertise that we are awaiting.

following that, which probably comes from developing a sensor array in a bathingcap - as a computer input device/ like video in, you can get functions like record, & even playback (the entertainment industry especially sex entertainment will go for that); and shortly after that, bidirectional thoughtwave communication, skull to skull (bathing cap to bathing cap).

yes lots to do technically


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4370080 -

I love the stalker.. :P lol


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4370405 -

sounds like youre reading Krishnamurti.

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: gema]
    #4371022 -

yes, i'm very inspired by him, he has taught me many great things that i try to communicate to others.

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Re: The Duality Between the Thinker and the Thought [Re: exclusive58]
    #4374124 -

exclusive58 said:
Icelander said:
I have never met one person who can sustain this state of no thought.  So  who lives this?



What it you did, without realizing it? Its not like such a person has a tag on their face saying they have emancipated themselves from thought. I don't think that it is something that is obviously apparent. You have to take a close look...


Emancipated from thought?  So like a vegetable.  Yeah, I saw one before.  He definately had a wisdom he could not put into words  :tongue: jk. 

Perhaps  we all exsist in moments without time but we could never remember them because during those times we had no thoughts at all to record into memories.  So the only way to really reach this state is to not exist which brings me to my next question--if you stop thinking does time stop with you?


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I do not grow anything illegal.
I do not sell anything.
I am, however, a very curious individual.
I also try to be helpful.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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