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OfflineZekebomb
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Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs
    #3710853 - 02/01/05 12:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

ever notice how spiritual gurus make no sense? those Zen koans are all ridiculous? Taoist texts are constantly self-contradictory? "The One is the All. only when you are Nothing will you be Everything." ..etc.

one explanation I've come across is that these things aren't meant to make logical sense, because instead they are meant to open new neural pathways in the brain, to allow us to progress. another explanation is that they don't make sense because the universe doesn't make sense, and any sense we make of it is just illusory.

but seriously, look around, doesn't the universe seem to follow natural laws most of the time? I mean, to me it seems, at first glance, that any time I'm confused it's because I'm lacking some vital information, not because confusedness is woven into the very fabric of the universe.

they talk about Duality being an illusion. if so, it's pretty fricken convincing!! the buddhists or taoists would probably tell me "the universe both is and is not dual" or something. what the hell does that mean? I have two cats. sure, they're both cats, so in that way they're "one", I guess... but that's a stretch. is non-duality simply a way of looking at things that reduces total grief over the long run? stated that way, is non-duality self-delusory?

then again, I am not high on drugs right now. when I am high on drugs, I totally have a feeling of Oneness and Connectedness with Everything, and a satisfied Understanding of the Ways of things. that said, is that feeling any more (or less) valid than the feelings I usually have when sober?

to summarize: why does every thought, taken to its extreme limits, seem to resolve into paradox? (not that paradox is a very satisfying resolution)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3710877 - 02/01/05 01:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Uncertainty is a certainty.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Sclorch]
    #3710891 - 02/01/05 01:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

that's exactly what I'm talking about! goddammit. why does that happen? ..the more you look, the more you notice it everywhere (and yet nowhere)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Sclorch]
    #3710894 - 02/01/05 01:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Is that like nothing lasts for forever except forever itself?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3710902 - 02/01/05 01:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Is that like nothing lasts for forever except forever itself?

no, not so much, because that makes sense. the statement has no contradictions. forever does last forever, however nothing except it does.

more like: my personality. consistently inconsistent.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3710926 - 02/01/05 01:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I think to better understand this you might want to read up on the Buddhist concept of Emptiness. Oneness is the supreme prevading nature of the unviverse, but form, subjectivity and the appearence of individuality are how the oneness is expressed. The non-duality they refer to is all in your mind, it is how you impute reality. Logically, nothing exists without a cause, and does not cause an effect, nor does anything remain static or exist independently of its own volition. So really that 'individual' objects or things exist is only a function of the brain designed to help us navigate the world. In true reality however, this is innacurate. Cause and effect, interconnectedness and impermenance show us that nothing exists independently. Duality is only a system, but it is a false reality if taken literally.

Just because things are non-dual does not mean they are all the same. A machine or an organism has many parts that function together. My best metaphor is color. Every color you see is simply a different wavelength (frequency) of electromagnetic energy. Really, every color is the exact same thing, and if you look closely it is impossible to tell where one color ends and another begins. They are different, but really only manifestations of one thing.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3710955 - 02/01/05 01:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Obfuscation is the key to clarity...


if it's clear that bullshitting the gullible will help you reach your goal.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3710992 - 02/01/05 01:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

One explanation for this is presented in Cosmic Consciousness, where the author believes that prophets, mystics, gurus and such, like Jesus, the Buddha, Lao Tzu, William Blake, and Walt Whitman, had all actually reached a state of higher being, the cosmic mind. While our minds are conceptual, and therefore separate things, observe them and define them with words, the cosmic mind would appear to us like our conceptual mind may appear to a turtle- confusing, needless and contradictory. Why not just say that the universe is split into duality? Anyone can see it, right? Shadows and light appear to our eyes, man and woman appear in humanity, what are they talking about?

Obviously you cannot catch anything but a glimpse of a completely different way of processing the universe, but they try to explain it in conceptual terms by stories and analogies. However, because they are still trying to explain something beyond the conceptual mind's comprehension, it still often appears confusing or even just nonsense, as quite a few of the gospels in the Gospel of Thomas appear to me as I read through it.

Experience is the only way to understand what appears to us as contradictions and paradoxes, but in the cosmic mind is truely unity, nirvana and eternity.

"Jesus said: The Kingdom of the Father is like a woman who was carrying a jar full of grain. As she walked along a handle of her jar broke off and grain trickled out, but she didn't notice. When she arrived in her house, she put the jar down and found it empty."
-97 from the Gospel of Thomas

"They know the world
without even going out the door.
They see the sky and its pattern
without even looking out the window.
The further out it goes, the less knowledge is;
therefore sages know without going,
name without seeing,
complete without striving."
-Tao Te Ching


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3710995 - 02/01/05 01:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It does cancel out duality. Forever is a singular.

Why does the idea of non duality bother people? It was the greatest realization I came upon in this life time.

Sure the territory is fucken wild to navigate because everything wrong is right and everything right is also wrong, fuck ya!

Once you realize that, you can't be taken in because there is no right to follow, it's all wrong and you know it ahead of time and you also can't go wrong CZ it's all right.

Embrace it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3711164 - 02/01/05 02:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

its because with our current way of thinking non duality cannot make sense. if we were to truly understand it then the illusion of duality would be no more. the way i sometimes to try think of it is that we are one experience and the experience of duality is simply part of the experience.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3711183 - 02/01/05 02:04 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The non-duality they refer to is all in your mind

you cannot catch anything but a glimpse of a completely different way of processing the universe

what I gleaned is that the universe is very difficult to process in its unfiltered form (read: weird, magical, illoical, wacky), so our brains interpret it as Dualistic in an effort to cope.

okay, but what if I were to propose that I have a system of belief which makes no sense when you first look at it, but the more you think about it, which is as close to experiencing it as you can get, the more sense it seems to make. I further claim that my system is more valid than your current system, and makes your life easier, or makes you feel happier and more fulfilled, or more in control of events, or whatever you want. ...er, I don't know, that's not much of a challenge, because I don't have such a system.

Forever is a singular.
sure, the word is, but...

Embrace it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess I just haven't experienced knowledge of Non-duality 'enough' to see how it's any more valid than Duality. I don't see why or how it's relevant or important. It sure is interesting though...

in summary: is the purported Non-Duality of the universe the sole source of contradiction and paradox? and confusion? (or is the source our illusory perception of duality?)


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3711194 - 02/01/05 02:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

This is my theory, which I use to explain everything:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three dimensions: everything, nothing, and everything/nothing.

1.Oneness ('the everything' dimension) does exsist --which is why we can (at least parially) concieve of it, but it doesn't exist here in this dimension.

2.Emptiness, or 'void' (or the 'nothing' dimension) aslo exists, and has an influence on our lives.

3.Duality (the 'everything/nothing dimension') is the dimension that we live in. Duality is where everything and nothing converge. 'Everything' and 'nothing' are represented in our language by symbolic pairs like: 'chaos' and 'order', 'black' and 'white', 'wrong' and 'right' ect. ect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me, this theory resolves alot of questions, like the 'big bang' question for example- simple! The "big bang" could be imagined as the marriage between the 'everything' and 'nothing' dimensions. So if you imagine us as the 'offspring' of these two dimensions, it makes sense that each of us have some of the 'traits' of both. Some of us are orderly, others of us are chaotic and disorderly, or we can be orderly in certain areas of our lives and disorderly in others. This is how our personalities are defined. You get the picture, we are all the product of these two things: 'everything' and 'nothing'.


Edited by soulmotion (02/01/05 02:48 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3711216 - 02/01/05 02:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I have two cats. sure, they're both cats, so in that way they're "one",

I have two doxes, so in a sense I have a pair of... oh never mind.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Swami]
    #3711260 - 02/01/05 02:18 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Daschunds make great door stops... or snacks for Great Danes.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: soulmotion]
    #3711298 - 02/01/05 02:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

soulmotion said:
This is my theory, which I use to explain everything:

There are three dimensions: everything, nothing, and everything/nothing.

For me, this theory resolves alot of questions,

You get the picture, everything is the product of something and nothing.




for me this theory raises some questions, like for instance what is a dimension? and also, aren't everything and something made of the same stuff? whereas nothing is not made of any stuff. you still have only two different types of dimension. don't you?


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3711342 - 02/01/05 02:42 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Q.what is a dimension?
A. I dunno, a 'realm', a 'sphere'... those are some synonyms. I guess you can think of it as a universe with it's own unique set of rules.

Q.aren't everything and something made of the same stuff?
A.Sorry, I'll edit that in my original post, when I said something I meant everything.

Q.you still have only two different types of dimension. don't you?
A. You could think of it like a 'union' in mathematics, where you combine two sets into one. For example: {2,3,5}U{3,4,7}={2,3,4,5,7}.
When combining two dimensions you are combining the 'rules' of both. Another mathematical example: {x|x<5}U{x|x>-2)={x|-2<x<5}, so you can see how the 'rules' for both sets are combined.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: soulmotion]
    #3711451 - 02/01/05 03:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

so in your paradigm, are the three dimensions equally valid?


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3711557 - 02/01/05 04:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
so in your paradigm, are the three dimensions equally valid?




Well, yes actually, they each serve a purpose. Think about it like this:

Imagine a universe that was absolutely saturated with matter from 'corner to corner' infinitely, so that there is no 'space' (obviously, there would be no 'corners' but you know what I mean). Or, imagine the opposite-- a universe with no matter, a complete void, nothing. How could we exist in either of these universes? We obviously couldn't. When you combine matter and space you have particles, planets, solar systems, starclusters, galaxies, galaxy clusters ect. ect. ect. There are some people who believe that the our universe has a limit to it's boundaries, as if you could eventually arrive at the edge of our universe. How ridiculous! That's the same kind of thinking that caused people to believe that the earth was flat, and that if you sailed far enough, you would fall off the edge. I think that 'everything' and 'nothing' exist eternally and that they converge here to create time. You couldn't have time unless you had matter and space. If you were in a void, there would be nothing to measure time with. Similarly, if you were in a 'matter-saturated' universe, there would be no space for anything to change- hence, there would also be no relativity between objects, and no time... just something to think about.


Edited by soulmotion (02/01/05 04:07 AM)


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: soulmotion]
    #3711578 - 02/01/05 04:06 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

so everything + nothing = something
and also everything + nothing = time

that's a pretty diggable paradigm man... except, practically speaking, how does it help ME with personal issues and troubles which arise in MY life? the thing is, large groups of people want me to explore the idea of non-duality because, they say, it will benefit me once I begin to grok it. indeed, other large groups of people want me to explore the idea that Jesus died for my sins, for whatever reason. another belief system which looks preposterous on the surface, but which I'm told only begins to yield its fruit once I've delved enough...


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Paradoxes, Duality, and being high on drugs [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3711623 - 02/01/05 04:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'll level with you.

I was raised a christian and I still have christian beliefs. I can't shake them; they are embedded in me, and I have no reason to want to discard them. Alot of my greatest insights were derived from concepts taught in the Bible, so I can't even really take credit for them. The thing is, people get really caught up on the 'doctrine', or the specifics. That's all good too, but there always has to be an application to religious teachings, otherwise they are practically useless.

Speaking of which, my theory of everything is really just a philosophy, it is supplimental to my religious ideals. There is an application to it though. You asked how does it effect your life, well... I think of it like:

In life we develope our personalities and adopt some of the traits of these two eternal concepts, let's call them 'chaos' and 'order'. Alot of times we're forced to choose which one we identify with more. For me, I identify with 'order' because I'd rather exist than not exist, even if that existance was confining (as would be the case if you were part of that 'whole' or 'everything' dimension. You wouldn't be able to move). You notice how depression, discouragement, and negativity are all attributes of 'chaos'? Self-loathing and all of that is when you were rather not exist than exist. I don't think is healthy to immediately jump to one extreame, but I try to live an orderly life as much as possible by taking moderate steps in that direction.

So I guess the application is:It helps to have an ideal that you're reaching for, rather than a hopeless feeling that nothing makes sense.

I don't know... it works for me.


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