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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4259459 -

So huns were as moral as we are, because just like us, they were protecting their way of life by figuring out unwritten rules that protect it.

Agreed


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4259633 -

As I attempt to impress on kids as young as 11 in the 6th grade during a month of human growth and development, that we are not merely mammals, we are human beings, and the category 'being,' I tell them is a spiritual reality. I tell them that spiritual beings have intellect, emotions, free will and morals. I further tell them that mere mammals (like dogs and cats and rats and bats) are amoral, "neither moral or immoral" [Webster], but that humans can choose to act like mere mammals, and so copulate like animals, or we can choose to be human beings in which case we recognize that everything we do is either mostly right, or mostly wrong. (As BE HERE NOW taught me at age 19, "All Your Acts Will Be Consecrated').

I'll add that Miami has been the #1 US city for HIV infections (sometimes #2 under NYC) for years; that I deal with STD infections in middle school, and I've had girls who planned a pregnancy and delivered at age 12 or came to us from elementary school pregnant and received an abortion!) Aside from the encouragement of Compassion for themselves and an infant coming through the loins of a child, I am trying to encourage simple survival. Morality is pre-eminently practical.

As to drug use, like everything else, it depends. Cocaine and heroin, for example, require lots of immorality from fearful oppression by drug lords to the mass murders that follow every step of the growth, manufacture and transport to the user. The selfishness and further crime by the user creates further suffering in the world. Either one cares, or one does not, and one then acts accordingly - morally or immorally - Compassionately or non-Compassionately. Growing one's own cannabis or fungus for home use seems to be harmless enough on the other hand. People aren't killing or being killed for these things.

I am assuming here a morality based upon Compassion, not legality. MDMA was legal once, so was LSD. The arbitrary laws changed for all the wrong reasons, and look what happens to those who possess or sell these things now. Imagine putting a first-time seller of LSD, with no prior arrests, in prison for 15 years in California! Talk of immorality - a fate worse than death in my estimation - and for what?!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: an observation.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4259771 -

The only reason these "hard" drugs (heroin,cocaine...) are linked to "bad things" is because they are illegal. If all drugs were legalized, their would be no negative effects except to the person using.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4260338 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
As I attempt to impress on kids as young as 11 in the 6th grade during a month of human growth and development, that we are not merely mammals, we are human beings, and the category 'being,' I tell them is a spiritual reality. I tell them that spiritual beings have intellect, emotions, free will and morals. I further tell them that mere mammals (like dogs and cats and rats and bats) are amoral, "neither moral or immoral" [Webster], but that humans can choose to act like mere mammals, and so copulate like animals, or we can choose to be human beings in which case we recognize that everything we do is either mostly right, or mostly wrong. (As BE HERE NOW taught me at age 19, "All Your Acts Will Be Consecrated').

I'll add that Miami has been the #1 US city for HIV infections (sometimes #2 under NYC) for years; that I deal with STD infections in middle school, and I've had girls who planned a pregnancy and delivered at age 12 or came to us from elementary school pregnant and received an abortion!) Aside from the encouragement of Compassion for themselves and an infant coming through the loins of a child, I am trying to encourage simple survival. Morality is pre-eminently practical.

As to drug use, like everything else, it depends. Cocaine and heroin, for example, require lots of immorality from fearful oppression by drug lords to the mass murders that follow every step of the growth, manufacture and transport to the user. The selfishness and further crime by the user creates further suffering in the world. Either one cares, or one does not, and one then acts accordingly - morally or immorally - Compassionately or non-Compassionately. Growing one's own cannabis or fungus for home use seems to be harmless enough on the other hand. People aren't killing or being killed for these things.

I am assuming here a morality based upon Compassion, not legality. MDMA was legal once, so was LSD. The arbitrary laws changed for all the wrong reasons, and look what happens to those who possess or sell these things now. Imagine putting a first-time seller of LSD, with no prior arrests, in prison for 15 years in California! Talk of immorality - a fate worse than death in my estimation - and for what?!




yea certain aspects of moral behaviour are usefull, but you dont go around yelling at someone for making a bad investion and making his firm bankrupt, even thought it can lead to the end of his life as he knows it. People don't take it so emotionally when you get your finger cut at work by not being carefull, they don't marginalize you for not taking care of yoursef. They don't consider it being immoral when you harm yourself by doing some risky actions like that.


And as for compassion, it has nothing to do with morality. Morality is a set of rules and principles that have nothing to do with love, but have eversything to do with duty as a human.

Compassion is compassion, morality is morality. You can be loving and compassionate and amoral at the same time, or immoral by some standards (for example by refusing to kill a prisoner sentanced to death)

And I ask you one more question: what is the difference between legality and morality? I say there is non, because both are decided just like that, they are not based on any universal imperatives.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: niteowl]
    #4260345 -

niteowl said:
The only reason these "hard" drugs (heroin,cocaine...) are linked to "bad things" is because they are illegal. If all drugs were legalized, their would be no negative effects except to the person using.



they are also immoral, because majority sets the definition of morality, and if they say something is immoral it is immoral in that society


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4260582 -

And as for compassion, it has nothing to do with morality.

This is patently wrong, and you will undoubtedly have major difficulties in your own life if this is what you think. Compassion accounts for the highest levels of human morality, which has been well-studied and categorized. I suggest that you educate yourself with the works of Jean Piaget, Lawrence Kohlberg, Carol Gilligan, Jane Loevinger. Check out the Millgram experiment that was posted a few weeks back in this forum.

What you are describing, Kohlberg refers to as 'Law and Order Morality' (Stage 4). Here is a quick look at what I'm referring to: http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/kohlberg.html

Years later, Lawrence Kohlberg attempted to add a Stage 7 on to his theory, which was a morality based on mystical perceptions that people have which sees all of us as being One. It wasn't well-received by the psychological community. What a surprise.

In the meantime, if Stage 4 is what makes sense to you, you will no doubt make a fine police officer.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: an observation.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4260699 -

I am not on trial here, and you will make a great mistake if you connect what I am saying here to me as a person


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4260700 -

So you could consider Christianity immoral do to the fact they try to overthrow your beliefs.


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Evolution of Time.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4260724 -

and you seem to be using some kind of your own concept of morality, I'm talking about morality of people on streets, morality of majority, morality of the avarage joe. You seem to be attaching morality to something other than your basic ignorant human, but basic ignorant human is all there really is, it is he who creates reality as it is.

Unless you wish to bring something metaphysical into this duscussion, but we are discussing in limits of proven science right now, acoarding to which we are smart mammals and nothing more


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4260988 -

Morality has a distinct ring to it. You'll know it when you hear it. Slavery?? Rape?? WTF??

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4260999 -

a police officer!! that's hilarious. I like all your ammo Markos. Stage 4? That puts things in perspective. Sheesh

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261022 -

Why don't the rapist have that ring? Are their ears pluged?


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4261065 -

Yes. Rapist's ears I guess you could say are plugged. Or their eyes are closed. Something like that would be appropriate.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261088 -

How does that translate into non-metaphorical speaking?
They feel a strong urge to stop what they are doing and they chose to ignore it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4261101 -

There you go. Morality. Or they feel nothing at all. Sad. Amoral. Animalistic.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261112 -

and why on earth would they chose to ignore that feeling?

as for second option "they feel nothing at all" , that pretty much doesn't fit into your theory that morality has a ring that everyone can hear

"sad", they are not sad, only victims are sad

"amoral" there you have it, not everyone has built in morality

"animalistic" as oposed to what? plantistic? bacterialistic?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261527 -

Didn't say it was a choice. Said their ears are plugged/eyes are closed. Don't think it's them plugging thier own holes.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261532 -

animalistic, plantistic, bacterialistic?? Same thing.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4261540 -

morality is built in. can't see it if someone has a fucking veil over your eyes. That is not a choice. They are the victim. By your writing so are you. This is all very sad.

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Re: an observation.. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4261583 -

So huns were as moral as we are

Then why did they protect their own from the acts they infliceted on others?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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