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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Seuss]
    #3789244 -

Seuss said:
> This is slightly misleading, too, though.

Not at all.  A math function will return the same value every single time given the same inputs, by definition.


That's what I was trying to say...  The `seed' is one of the inputs; your initial posting did not make that clear (to me, anyway) :smile:


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delta9

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: delta9]
    #3790440 -

ive been reading a lot on random number generation in general and everything says the source of the random input has to be external of the computer system. One example is using a rf tuner on a station that no one is broadcasting on and picking up atmospheric noise then running that into yer mic port and then through an algorithm to generate the bit based on picking some points in the static. Also using background noise in a room works in a similar way.

Another way is radioactive decay, basically hook up a geiger counter and picking up the random 'ticks' of when the element randomly ejects a radioactive partical. These all depend on time though so im not sure if they'll even work for the GCP application. The quantum-tunneling seems to be where its at as far as correlating to world events in a supernatural way.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Eightball]
    #3797185 -

Quote:
ive been reading a lot on random number generation in general and everything says the source of the random input has to be external of the computer system.


I suspect you are misreading the point they are trying to make. You can have a random number sequence generator on the computer, or even part of the CPU. Many non PC based Intel chips have a built in random number sequence generator. These work using HARDWARE methods to generate the sequence. My guess is that the articles you are reading are trying to show the difference between a hardware real random number sequence generator as opposed to a software pseudo-random number sequence.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Seuss]
    #3797437 -

heres what the guy running that princeton program says:

There is a commercially produced software generator that I
have not tested but which I think probably is very good. It
is by Comscire. Algorithmic REGs are not suitable (they
aren't labile) but the Comscire unit uses various
non-algorithmic variations in the OS to make random numbers
and it may be labile.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Eightball]
    #3797503 -

> Algorithmic REGs are not suitable

Correct

> the Comscire unit uses various non-algorithmic variations in the OS to make random numbers

This is iffy, but can work if done properly. The problem is that it is very easy to get patterns in data that one would think to be random. For example, pulling bytes from memory thinking they will be random when the OS tends to place certain types of things in certain areas of memory. I have seen a lot of code that uses the current time to seed a REG... again, this is a bad practice... something like an MD5 of the current time would be much better... how many bits change as each second, minute, hour passes... not many... thus time seeds to not have a large variability to them... using milliseconds and microseconds is another common practice, but most computers have a large 'gate' over which a sample is taken, thus the number of samples available in the population is much smaller than thought.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Seuss]
    #3797738 -

Pardon me for interrupting here- I am a newbie and I have a fairly simple question that may not be easy to answer.
This is in regards to:

>Slot machines are always running through the random number sequence. The true randomness is created when the user hits the button, selecting a number from the pseudo-random sequence, which is a non-deterministic event.<

1. How can it be PROVEN that a sequence of numbers is random? It sounds like every basis I've read to generate random numbers is assuming that the process produces randomness in order to study it. In other words, how can something be MORE random than another example? In theory, a sequence of generated numbers could produce "1" 2,000 times in a row. This would, technically, be "random", although it would be highly unlikely. But how can we apply the term "unlikely" to a truly random event? If any number is more or less likely to come up than any other number, the sequence no longer seems random to me.

2. If we're saying that a person "choosing" to press a button at a particular time constitutes randomness, aren't we assuming free will, completely unconstrained?

3. If we can prove randomness scientifically, that would indicate that we can PREDICT it, no?

I'm an agnostic, but I've had a gut feeling for years that randomness does not truly exist. This is not to say that I believe in an Intelligent Design, but that logic does not seem to permit the idea of creativity or originality.

I realize this could turn into a philosophical discussion quickly- I just want someone to finally give me a better answer than "trust me- randomness exists".

This whole project is amazing to me and even though it initially sounded like nonsense, I can't help but think about it all the time now. Some of the greatest minds in history have said that they would "know" when they stumbled on a Great Truth, because it would just seem right. Well, to me, this just Seems Right- even though I'm still waiting for word to come out that it's just a hoax.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: jabudi]
    #3797931 -

> How can it be PROVEN that a sequence of numbers is random?

It cannot. All that can be proven is that there is no statistical pattern within a sequence of numbers. There are stastical tests that indicate how much of a pattern is within a sequence... I can give you references for further reading if you like.

> how can something be MORE random than another example?

Things are not random at all. Sequences are what is important.

> If we're saying that a person "choosing" to press a button at a particular time constitutes randomness

The person pressing the button is adding a non-deterministic characteristic to the random event generator. By non-deterministic, I mean that it cannot be known when it will occur until it happens.

> a gut feeling for years that randomness does not truly exist.

As you pointed out, randomness is a man-made concept that requires a good understanding of statistics in order to understand properly... and even then we really don't understand everything about it.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Seuss]
    #3798761 -

>It cannot. All that can be proven is that there is no statistical pattern within a sequence of numbers. There are statistical tests that indicate how much of a pattern is within a sequence... I can give you references for further reading if you like.<

To use my earlier example, I would think that a statistical test would say that there IS a pattern in a sequence if it, by chance, came up 10,000 times in a row with the number "1". However, the number that came before it, we're saying, determines the likelihood of it occurring again. This does not jive with my understanding of "randomness", because there should be absolutely no way to determine how likely a TRULY random event could occur.

Of course, there are people that spend their entire careers doing just that- and I wonder if they're basing the concept on the concept itself; trying to use the idea of randomness as a way to prove randomness. This strikes me as very unscientific...not to try and pass judgment on it.

>Things are not random at all. Sequences are what is important.<

Sorry, that's what I meant. I don't know that I can conceptualize a truly random sequence. I feel that if we could know all of the variables, all chance is eliminated. It seems to me that when we don't understand something, the tendency is to call it random when it may just be extremely complex.

>The person pressing the button is adding a non-deterministic characteristic to the random event generator. By non-deterministic, I mean that it cannot be known when it will occur until it happens

But that's assuming that the person has free will and that, could you run the experiment 100 times simultaneously with the same EXACT situations, the person WOULD be able to press it at a different time.

And how does time fit into the context of randomness anyway?

>As you pointed out, randomness is a man-made concept that requires a good understanding of statistics in order to understand properly... and even then we really don't understand everything about it.

What gets me is that we spend an awful lot of our energy reaping the benefits of statistical probability- yet I can't find any reason to believe in it. Of course, that may only mean that I'm ignorant on the subject (and I am) or it may just be because it's all hogwash but it helps us live our lives. In other words, a convenient lie because humans can't comprehend the reality of it.

Any thoughts?

And yes, any websites for further info would be greatly appreciated. As long as it doesn't require a PhD in anything to read. :smile:

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: jabudi]
    #3816780 -

There are plenty of tests to see how close a dataset is to white noise, and we assume whitenoise to be random, but as someone said above, true random COULD yeild 2000 1's in a row.

unrelatedly, i heard recently that someone somewhere (if i remembered where it would sound a lot more credible...) has started using a little webcam facing a section of a lava lamp to produce random numbers. for instance, how many red pixels are on the screen at any given time will be pretty darn random

even though in reality the movements of the lava lamp are determined by the molecular structures of the wax, and the temperature currents over the whole room, it is random enough for most purposes. not random enough to tell the future, but im skeptical about the little black box anyway.


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All instances of FOAF in this post have been replaced by I and My for clarity of reading. No relation to the poster is meant or implied.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Elahrairah]
    #3824170 -

>There are plenty of tests to see how close a dataset is to white >noise, and we assume white noise to be random

Yes, but it seems to me (in my limited knowledge) that we're defining randomness without actually defining it. How can we assume that it exists just because something exists that we ASSUME to be random? It seems like circular logic to me. And I still don't understand how true randomness could produce probabilities. Obviously, we use probabilities in many aspects of our society, but why would a TRULY random number be less likely to appear in a sequence if it has already appeared?

> using a little webcam facing a section of a lava lamp to produce
> random numbers. for instance, how many red pixels are on the screen >at any given time will be pretty darn random

I couldn't find the webcam version of that site, but read a little about it. That DEFINITELY sounds "unrandom" to me- maybe beyond our grasp of understanding, but that isn't what I consider random. I feel the same way about the weather. If we -could- know every position of every molecule and how it would react to every other one, in theory, we should be able to KNOW the weather- not predict it. No?

>Even though in reality the movements of the lava lamp are determined >by the molecular structures of the wax, and the temperature currents >over the whole room, it is random enough for most purposes.

But the more I ask about randomness, the more answers along these lines that I get. "Random enough" just makes me more confused. On the one level, I know exactly what you mean...on a deeper one, it just doesn't compute- going back to the whole "How can one sequence of numbers be MORE random than another?"

> not random enough to tell the future, but im skeptical about the >little black box anyway.

Believe me..I am too. As were many of the prominent scientists that joined the project after being completely unable to debunk a seemingly goofy concept.

The thing is, there really do seem to be results there, and they've been reproduced MANY times already.

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Re: Global Consciousness Project [Re: Elahrairah]
    #3837129 -

quantum attributes that cause the white noise in turn could be altered by some as of yet known method of telekinisis/telepathy/global consciousness. So the randomness of the random seq gen might not be the key. It could be that the quantum tunneling itself is partly influenced by human thought thus no other method of random num generation besides it would work for detecting events.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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