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Offlinecrazyman
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Registered: 11/07/98
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Global Warming???
    #3700483 - 01/30/05 01:35 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Is there really global warming?

If you look at the facts, global warming has been occurring on & off for millions of years. (IE Ice Ages millenniums come and past).

We have been "globally warming" for the at least the past 1000 years... Way before we "caused" any greenhouse gasses.

Sure, we've contributed to the "ozone effect", but the Earth ain't gonna die because "we" blew 100 minuscule years of pollution in the air... A large volcanic eruption produces 3 times that amount into the atmosphere every century.

Is global warming really a concern that we can retard? Or is this just the course of thing as they are/should be?


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I want to live in Northern Exposure. Ed Chigliak would be my pal.



Edited by crazyman (01/30/05 01:43 AM)


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3700810 - 01/30/05 03:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

global warming is a hoak that was invented by the dupont corporation. Their patent on freon was running out, so they made up the whole global warming hoax so freon would be made illegal, thus giving 100% market share of refridgerents to their (then) newly patented more expensive refridgerents.

p.s.
I know thats not how you spell refridgerents, i should have ut refridgeration agents, but i'm dumb sometimes.


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And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: shroommachine]
    #3700816 - 01/30/05 03:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with your last four words anyway.

Actually, global warming may be a greater threat to us than we currently know, but it is actually balanced out slightly by the fact that all the shit we burn is dimming the sun, thereby cooling the earth to counteract global warming.

Quote:

They have reached the disturbing conclusion that the amount of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface has been gradually falling.

Paradoxically, the decline in sunlight may mean that global warming is a far greater threat to society than previously thought.

The effect was first spotted by Gerry Stanhill, an English scientist working in Israel.

Cloud changes

Comparing Israeli sunlight records from the 1950s with current ones, Dr Stanhill was astonished to find a large fall in solar radiation.

"There was a staggering 22% drop in the sunlight, and that really amazed me." Intrigued, he searched records from all around the world, and found the same story almost everywhere he looked.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4171591.stm


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3701223 - 01/30/05 06:24 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Global warming is becoming more and more solid scientifically. We have a fair amount of corroborative evidence now. Go have a look.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3701281 - 01/30/05 07:05 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To not realize that global warming is being strongly increased by human kind and is a threat to our planet is to be ignorant.

If action must be taken to preserve our ecosystem, it must be taken now. Should we wait too much to realize this, it will be too late, and we will look back upon our past and regret will fill our hearts.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3701370 - 01/30/05 08:13 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

this, is just the course of thing as they are/should be?!


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Offline13eetleJuice
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: Gomp]
    #3701389 - 01/30/05 08:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

OMG, I think that's the most coherant thing I have ever seen you say, Gomp!

Well, coherant isn't the right word. Without a poetic turn of phrase is a better explanation. You know what I mean. I'll bet you're a big fan of Hieku's.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: Gomp]
    #3701445 - 01/30/05 09:03 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

We can always change the course of things?!


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: 13eetleJuice]
    #3701546 - 01/30/05 09:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

13eetleJuice said:
OMG, I think that's the most coherant thing I have ever seen you say, Gomp!

Well, coherent isn't the right word. Without a poetic turn of phrase is a better explanation. You know what I mean. I'll bet you're a big fan of Hieku's.




:grin: :thumbup: :heart: why, thank you! (i guess?)

wouldn't 'lose' that 'bet', but would not 'win' either..
I have not heard of Hieku's, but after googl(e)ing 'Hieku', having heard of it, it sure looks interesting.
as follows, one could rank me a fan of Hieku's, having an interest. however, I got no strong enthusiasm, I will bookmark the find, and read up on it, when, I read up on it. (as far as that's not considered an strong enthusiasm) So, lingering on the 'many' definitions of "fan", one could say I'm no fan of Hieku's, being a fan. I guess.. :wink:  hi hi  :heart:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: exclusive58]
    #3701612 - 01/30/05 10:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
We can always change the course of things?!



Amen.

Change, changes constantly in changing unconstantly constant,...

All ways at All times.
Ha Ha  :sun:


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: Gomp]
    #3701645 - 01/30/05 10:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Global warming is real, and there can be no doubt that the world goes through warmer and colder phases. The problem is that we dont know just how delicate the balance is. The only way to find out would be to have it accelerate to such a point that it would be impossible to reverse, and I think it can be agreed that no one wants that.

There is more to it than just carbon monoxide too. Jet contrails in the upper atomoshpere have been shown to form a thin blanket that sunlight gets through but keeps heat in. Ill provide a link if anyone is interested.

There have been numerous studies that show that the "breaking point" may be only a matter of 3 to 4 degrees increase in the global mean temperature. What i mean by "breaking point" is that the ice that sits in the Mountains that feed the amazon would not be enough to feed the river, and as an effect most of the amazon rainforest would die. Its like the pervibal domino effect, everything is interconnected. If that first domino falls in all likelyhood they all will. We arent just talking about being a little hot and uncomfortable here we are talking about forests becoming deserts, rising global waters, the cool water that melts from the poles will screw up the currents, and europe will no longer be a moderate place, it will be as cold as russia at the same lattitudes. There will be an increase in severe storms, severe drought. Food supply will dwindle, because what was farmland will turn into desert. Not a pretty picture. MILLIONS of people's lives are at stake do you really want to risk that on the off chance its just a "phase" the earth is going through?

Now this obviously wont happen in two days like it did in that horrible movie, "the day after tomarrow", but if nothing changes our grandchildren could be around to see it.

There is no other precendence for this in history. It is an unknown. As the saying goes, its always best to err on the side of caution.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleClark
Bar RoomSuperman

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 179
Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3701685 - 01/30/05 10:58 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

crazyman said:
Sure, we've contributed to the "ozone effect", but the Earth ain't gonna die because "we" blew 100 minuscule years of pollution in the air... A large volcanic eruption produces 3 times that amount into the atmosphere every century.




Do you have a source for that? From what little I've read, recent human activity dwarfs the CO2 contribution from volcanoes:

"Gerlach (1991) estimated a total global release of 3-4 x 1012 mol/yr from volcanoes. Man-made (anthropogenic) CO2 emissions overwhelm this estimate by at least 150 times."


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3701880 - 01/30/05 12:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

blaze has the right idea. Global climate works on tipping points and we're not really sure how much the systems can take before we start to see massive change. Since August, I've been assisting in research to interperet salinity levels from the coasts of the Labrador Sea. There's strong evidence that at least the 5 most recent glacial advances have begun there. The reason for this probably has to do with what's usually called the global conveyor belt (see pic). The current hits a pivotal point in the northern Atlantic (it could easily be interrupted). Interrupting this current is the most definite way to set off a very real global climate change (most likely, another ice advance). We're not 100% sure how close we are to this actually happening. But given the rate at which the Earth is currently warming, it's definitely a concern worth researching.



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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineCatalysis
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Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3703331 - 01/30/05 07:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think its funny that everyone argues about tiny climate changes and the possibilities over 1000s of years while im sitting here in my chicago apartment inhaling CO fumes from the street and drinking God knows what in my water. Global warming is typical political/liberal crap. We are dying of lung cancer and everyone blames cigarettes. I have radon in my drinking water and people are talking about fucking ice caps and what is going to happen to the polar bears. Jesus, what the hell is going on?


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Offlinebjjrevol
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Registered: 11/21/04
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3703828 - 01/30/05 09:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Not so much, man. The vast majority of the credible scientific community, i.e. those not on the take from the oil industry, agrees that human activity is a significant factor in climate change. Further, like gijith and blaze said, there are a number of feedback mechanisms that might create a runaway greenhouse effect following uncontrolled greenhouse gas buildup. For example, the melting of the icecaps and retreat of the glaciers we now see, with the extent of the polar ice caps now at a record low, diminishes the reflectivity of the earth, or albedo, as sea water is significantly darker than ice, warming the oceans further and accelerating polar melting. It is also likely that there are feedback mechanisms we are not aware of, or are only now discoving. For example, the main sink for atmospheric carbon is the ocean, in the form of deep seabed deposits, but more importantly in the shells of diatoms. A study, submitted within the last year, I believe, found that diatom organisms had shown a substantial increase in C02 content over several decades, towards a theoretical maximum capacity. What would happen when this capacity is exceeded is open to speculation, of course, but there would certainly be a much more rapid increase of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, as there would simply be one less factor diminishing it.


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"If God wanted people to die with dignity, He wouldn't have created modern medical technology capable of artificially prolonging life." - The Onion

"What is best in life? To crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laugh at the weeping of their women."
- Conan the Barbarian


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: crazyman]
    #3705785 - 01/31/05 03:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nope.. it's just an illusion

Thaw sees grass take hold in Antarctica

December 27, 2004


Story Here

GRASS has become established in Antarctica, showing the continent is warming to temperatures unseen for 10,000 years.

Scientists have reported that broad areas of grass are now forming turf where there were once ice-sheets and glaciers.

Tufts have previously grown on patches of Antarctica in summer, but the scientists have now observed larger areas surviving winter and spreading in the summer months.

Some fear the change portends a much wider melting of the ice-cap that formed at least 20 million years ago.

"Grass has taken a grip. There are very rapid changes going on in the Antarctic's climate, allowing grass to colonise areas that would once have been far too cold," said Pete Convey, an ecologist conducting research with the British Antarctic Survey.

Mr Convey said that many species of wildlife were at serious risk from such rapid change, including emperor and other species of penguin, seals, cold-water fish and giant sea spiders.

The latest research was carried out on the Antarctic peninsula, which juts northwards towards Cape Horn, and the islands around it.

More strongly influenced by changes in sea and air temperatures than the rest of Antarctica, these areas are an excellent place to measure the effects of climate change.

Measurements made over the past three decades show the peninsula and islands are among the fastest-warming places on earth, with winter temperatures already 5C higher than in 1974.

Many glaciers and ice-sheets are melting.

Mr Convey said Antarctic hair grass and another species called pearlwort were the only complex plants capable of surviving on the Antarctic mainland.

"In the past they were at the limit of their range," he said.

"They used to appear sporadically with one or a few plants growing in sheltered north-facing areas where birds or the wind dropped the seeds, but they never did very well.

"What we are seeing now is dense swards or lawns forming and both plants growing much further south than ever before. It is quite remarkable."

Research by Mr Convey and his colleagues suggests one of the main reasons for the change is that the rising temperatures have brought forward the start of the Antarctic spring and delayed the onset of autumn, enabling the grass to produce mature seed which germinates and becomes established.

Antarctica has not always been ice-bound. Fossil records show it once had a temperate climate and was covered in dense vegetation.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: Shroomism]
    #3706452 - 01/31/05 07:04 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I saw that article on livescience.com shroomism, the evidence is everywhere.

Here is another one.


Tendrils of condensation that mark the paths of high-flying jets sometimes form a loose lacework of man-made clouds in the upper atmosphere. The extra blanket of atmospheric insulation from these spreading contrails, as they are called, could accelerate global warming, studies have shown.

Now a group of researchers says something should be done. Their proposal would lengthen the typical airline flight.

High-altitude cirrus clouds, both natural and jet-induced, are unlike thicker low-altitude clouds, which block sunlight from reaching the surface. The thinner cirrus, which float in the sky at 20,000 feet or higher, act like a see-through blanket – letting sunlight pass in, while trapping reflected heat.

A rise in contrail formation -- and therefore blanketing -- is expected in the future, because air travel is growing at 3 percent to 5 percent a year, and cargo transportation by air is increasing by 7 percent a year.

Under the Radar

Sink, Crack, Slide: Surprising Effects of Global Warming

Global Warming Likely Cause of Worst Mass Extinction Ever

The New Nature: Cities as Designer Ecosystems







In a recent investigation of air traffic trends, researchers at the Imperial College London came up with guidelines for minimizing the climate impact from contrails. They propose setting ceilings on the altitude that jets can fly: 31,000 feet in the summer and 24,000 feet in the winter.

On long flights, most jets cruise at about 35,000 feet. This conserves fuel, since there is less drag through the thinner, high-altitude air. But the environmental benefit of better fuel efficiency may be offset by the warming aspect of contrail formation.

"We'd like this research to inform government policies, not just in the UK but throughout the [European Union] and the rest of the world so that decision makers can take all the environmental issues into account and do the right thing," said Robert Noland, leader on the investigation.

Contrail effects are not now included in governmental assessments of the impact from air travel.

Heat-trapping web

Condensation trails -- contrails -- form when hot, humid air coming out of a jet engine mixes with the colder surrounding air of the atmosphere. Water in the air condenses around particles in the exhaust.

Depending on how much moisture is in the air, contrails can be long-lived, spreading out to look more like the wispy cirrus clouds made by Nature.

Because the atmosphere becomes generally colder at higher altitudes, it is easier for contrails to form behind higher-flying aircraft. Therefore, imposing a maximum altitude for commercial flights could reduce contrail formation.

The impact from jet exhaust became evident in the days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, when most air traffic in the United States was halted.

During the stoppage, astronaut Frank Culbertson, on the International Space Station, told flight controllers, "Normally when we go over the U.S., the sky is like a spider web of contrails. And now the sky is just about completely empty."

During this period, a study found that the difference between high and low temperatures rose one degree Celsius (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit) when the skies were clear of contrails.

A more recent report from NASA documented a 1 percent per decade increase in cirrus cloud cover over the United States, presumably due to increased air travel. The researchers claimed that this extra cloudiness could account for a warming trend of half a degree Fahrenheit per decade in the years between 1975 and 1994.

Policy changes

Requiring planes to cruise at lower altitudes would cause longer flights and require more fuel. But in weighing the two possibilities, Noland and his collaborators conclude that a rise in the number of contrails would be worse for the environment.

"There is little more that aircraft designers can do to increase engine fuel efficiency at high altitude," Noland said, "but designing new aircraft that can be as fuel efficient flying at 20,000 feet, as today's aircraft are at 35,000 feet, would help eliminate contrails."

Besides altitude, the researchers discovered that weather conditions affect the likelihood of contrails. In fact, there are days when the atmospheric conditions make it almost impossible to avoid forming the spindly clouds. The ultimate strategy might entail day-to-day decisions to avoid air masses that are susceptible to contrail formation. Moreover, simple software could be developed to warn a pilot when his or her plane is leaving a "jetprint" in the sky.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: blaze2]
    #3706462 - 01/31/05 07:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

And Another




Global Warming Nears Critical Point of No Return, Group Says
By Ed Johnson
Associated Press
posted: 24 January 2005
05:32 pm ET



LONDON (AP) -- Global warming is approaching the critical point of no return, after which widespread drought, crop failure and rising sea-levels would be irreversible, an international climate change task force warned Monday.

The report, "Meeting the Climate Challenge,'' called on the G-8 leading industrial nations to cut carbon emissions, double their research spending on green technology and work with India and China to build on the Kyoto Protocol.

"An ecological time-bomb is ticking away,'' said Stephen Byers, who co-chaired the task force with U.S. Republican Senator Olympia Snowe, and is a close confidant of British Prime Minister Tony Blair. "World leaders need to recognize that climate change is the single most important long term issue that the planet faces.''

The independent report, by the Institute for Public Policy Research in Britain, the Center for American Progress in the United States and The Australia Institute, is timed to coincide with Blair's commitment to advance international climate change policy during Britain's G-8 presidency.

Byers said it was vital Blair secured U.S. cooperation in tackling climate change. U.S. President George W. Bush has rejected the Kyoto accord, arguing that the carbon emission cuts it demands would damage the U.S. economy.

"What we have got to do then is get the Americans as part of the G-8 to engage in international concerted effort to tackle global warming,'' said Byers. "If they refuse to do that then other countries will be reluctant to take any steps.''

According to the report, urgent action is needed to stop the global average temperature rising by 2 degrees Celsius above the level in 1750 -- the approximate start of the Industrial Revolution when mankind first started significantly polluting the atmosphere with carbon dioxide.

Beyond a 2 degrees rise, "the risks to human societies and ecosystems grow significantly'' the report said, adding there would be a risk of "abrupt, accelerated, or runaway climate change.''

It warned of "climatic tipping points'' such as the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets melting and the Gulf Stream shutting down.

No accurate temperature readings were available for 1750, the report said, but since 1860, global average temperature had risen by 0.8 percent to 15 degrees Celsius.

The two degrees rise could be avoided by keeping the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere below 400 parts per million (ppm). Current concentrations of 379 ppm "are likely to rise above 400 ppm in coming decades and could rise far higher under a business-as-usual scenario,'' the report warned.

The task force urges all G-8 countries to agree to generate a quarter of their electricity from renewable sources by 2025 and to shift agricultural subsidies from food crops to biofuels.

The report recommends wider international use of emission trading schemes which are already in use in the European Union, under which unused carbon dioxide quotas are sold. The profit motive is expected to drive investment in new technology to cut emissions further.

The task force of senior politicians, scientists and business figures was established in March 2004. Its chief scientific adviser is Dr. Rajendra K. Pachauri, chairman of the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

The British government welcomed the report, which mirrors many of the suggestions already floated by Blair in the build up to Britain's G-8 presidency.

Blair has acknowledged the importance of U.S. cooperation, but conceded Washington is unlikely to sign up to Kyoto. Instead he is pursuing international commitment to developing new environmentally friendly technology.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: blaze2]
    #3706467 - 01/31/05 07:07 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

And one more disturbing one




Internet Project Concludes Planet Could Warm by Nearly 20 Degrees
By LiveScience Staff

posted: 26 January 2005
04:47 pm ET



A broad look at possibilities for climate change suggests the planet could heat up much more significantly than other leading studies have predicted.

The global temperature could rise between 3.6 and 19.8 degrees Fahrenheit (2-11 Celsius), scientist report in the Jan. 27 issue of the journal Nature.

The report is the result of a collaborative Internet project called climateprediction.net. Like the popular SETI@home screensaver, software downloaded from climateprediction.net uses spare time on an individual's computer -- more than 90,000 people are participating so far -- to process one of more than 2,000 different climate models.

Whereas earlier studies generally plugged in the most likely assumptions, the computing power of the new project allowed a wider range of parameters for all the variables thought to affect climate change, including industrial carbon dioxide production and knowledge of how heat and chemicals move between the air and ocean.

Each of the many new models has different assumptions. Early in the project, those that best replicated history were selected for making prognostication for the future. The result is a larger range of results. Previous widely accepted climate models had predicted a temperature rise of 3.6 to 9 degrees Fahrenheit (2-5 Celsius).

Such extreme warming as possibly could occur given the newest predictions could take decades or centuries, the researchers say. A firm time frame can't be forecasted.

The results suggest the climate could be much more sensitive to increasing levels of greenhouse gases than thought, said project leader David Stainforth of the University of Oxford in the UK.

"The range of possibilities for future climate evolution needs to be taken into account when planning climate change mitigation and adaptation strategies," Stainforth and his colleagues write in the journal.

The project is ongoing.


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineshroommachine
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Re: Global Warming??? [Re: blaze2]
    #3709643 - 01/31/05 09:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506009

That was written by Owsley. The earth goes through cooling and warming phases. Also, rain forests have only been around for about 10,000 years. There very young on the scale of the earths climate


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And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk ...four times already this year and I used to be over by the window and I could see the squirrels, and they were merry, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and its not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire.


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