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Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas * 1
    #2879377 -

I've been talking to a few of you about this lately, and toying with the idea for some time now. Well I think it's about time we get some actual plans in order!

I'd like to try organizing this as a Shroomery project, as I know we have plenty of bright and innovative minds here!

Purpose: To design an "off-grid" house which is 100% self-sufficient. Systems should be as close to 100% efficiency as possible (of course 100% efficiency is impossible, but there's no harm in going for 99% efficiency in all energy conversions/transport!). The sole exception for grid connection will be a communications system (phone, internet, ect).

Hypothesis: Through carefully balancing energy needs with energy production capabilities, I think it will be possible to run a house with completely natural energy sources (non-polluting!!!)

Guidelines: All systems should be easily obtainable and, if at all possible, use simple construction that is fairly inexpensive. All systems should also be maintainable by a minimum number of operators (personally I'm going for a single operator). This includes the ability to repair systems on-site.

Now, I know there is plenty of information about this type of thing out there...and plenty of people already doing it! I'm not looking for links to ready-made houses, so please keep those to a minimum (or not at all, if possible). I'm hoping for some new ideas and innovations, here! :smile:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2879381 -

This is a basic energ need/production list I have started:

Generation Capacity:
-wind
-water
-solar
-geothermal
-fuel-cell system
-battery backup/buffering system
-electronic control system (also falls under consumption, obviously)

Electrical Usage:
-heating (water, indoor environment)
-lighting (NO incandescent bulbs!!!)
-cooking (minimal required!!!)
-sanitation (pumps, water reclamation)
-water supply (pumps)
-electronics equipment ("recreational" - computer, video, ect)
-operations electronics (essentials, including computerized control system)
-losses in distribution system (MINIMIZE THIS!!!)
-communications systems (phone, satellite, internet)

Conservation Systems:
-heat exchangers
-minimal water usage with possible onsite recycling
-maximized thermal insulation
-passive systems
-GO FOR MAXIMUM CONVERSION EFFICIENCY IN ALL SYSTEMS!!!! (>90% efficiency possible?)


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2879395 -

What I'm trying to do right now (step 1) is calculate the minimum possible energy usage I could live with, and then figure out a scaling factor for multiple occupants. Once we know the minumum usage, we can plan a generation system to meet these needs (plus at least a small overhead). As I am going for maximal efficiency I am looking at alternates to the usual lighting/heating systems used in most houses as they are VERY inefficient. All computer systems should be based on the lowest possible power consumption (laptops only!!!).


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2879486 -

Here's an interesting and inexpensive windmill design that can be built with off the shelf items. It could be used for pumping water or perhaps small power generation (?). I am contemplating buying the plans and seeing how it works out. Instead of one large windmill, I thought of a battery (or grid) of smaller windmills, each with one having it's own generator (such as an automotive alternator/generator) and circuit breakers to isolate it from the grid in case of a power surge. If you were to use just one large windmill and it experienced failure of some kind, you would be out of wind power generation. With multiple small generators, you also have more flexibility for servicing.

Grey Water Central has some good information and books you can purchase which will help you design a grey water system.

UnderGroundHousing.com provides concepts for inexpensive/energy efficient housing. This is another idea which intrigues me, but since I have a home already it remains just a curiosity. However, it might provide useful ideas for your purposes.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (07/11/04 08:38 PM)

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Evolving]
    #2879507 -

I definitely like the collection of smaller mills idea! I was also thinking of a fairly simple windmill design utilizing an automotive generator if possible. Also a good idea to have each circuit isolated! I'm sure we could also design a small computerized controller for a wind generation system to distribute the load amongst the generators evenly and isolate failures.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2879982 -

I've been running this idea around in my head for quite some time now and was delighted to see some other members of the shroomery trying to put thoughts into action. I'm just now getting to the point where I'm interested to the point of research, and would be glad to help with this project in any way I can.


--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #2880036 -

I don't know if you guys have seen them before, the lighting tubes that focus and direct sunlight from the roof during the day to light rooms. Here's a link:
http://www.sun-tek.com/Docs/ArticleDaylighting.htm

These would mean you only had to light the house during the night (for the most part) and would save a lot of energy.

And if you were say using the underground housing like evolving mentioned in his post they would help with the problems caused by innability to have light from windows. The only thing is, and this just occured to me, is that it would probably be hard to supply light using these to the bottom level of a house, and this would be the part of an underground house that would most need them, as in most of the plans I've seen part of the top layer is above ground. But if you would somehow put columns in the top layer rooms, that would look like support columns, you could probably run the tubes through those and supply the bottom level. Just a thought.


--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #2880042 -

Well let's first try to get a list together of the essential energy requirements for a "comfortable" living. In general I'm thinking we would need heat, water, light, and sanitation. Heating of course may not be needed in some parts of the world...but I live in Canada so I'm going to include it in my list :wink:

Now we should come up with a list of the specific energy requirements for each of these "essentials" using current low-energy methods. Add these together and we will have the specific energy requirements for essentials - not including any improvements we can make or conservation systems - and we can proceed from there with trying to find the lowest possible energy requirements (this time including improvements/conservations) for essentials. That should at least give us a rough idea of what we should look at for energy generation.

I'm thinking we could break it down into something like this (with various ideas for each item):

Environmental (heating/cooling):
-forced air systems (most common, here, are natural-gas fired forced air furnaces)
-passive solar heating
-floor/wall heating (tubing embedded in the floor and/or walls which would have a liquid pumped through it - the issue then becomes the energy requirement of the pumping and heating of the liquid)
-standard "radiator" style heating (either electric or pumped liquid/steam)

Water supply:
(in nearly all cases I think the energy requirements here depend on the pumping system used)
-surface water such as streams, lake, ect
-rainwater with collection system (may be too unreliable)
-groundwater (probably the most energy intensive for pumping, unless an adequate positive-flow spring can be found nearby)

Waste-management:
-septic tank (VERY energy efficient, possibly even not requiring any energy at all)
-passive filter system (using a biologic approach: bacteria could be used to process waste before mechanical filtration)
-active filtration system (probably the most energy intensive)

Cooking:
-this will probably be the hardest system to design with energy efficiency in mind...as heating food generally requires a LARGE ammount of energy. I'm not sure of any other way to do this other than open fire or electric heating (other than a microwave, which is still VERY inefficient, about 30%)

In all cases it might be very beneficial to combine several different approaches into one system. Heating, for example, could rely on passive solar heating during the daytime and switch over to electric heating at night. It would probably be a good idea to tie all systems together so that heat produced by all systems is reclaimed and used for other purposes rather than have it escape as "heat pollution". A septic system may be the cheapest (with reguards to energy use) way to go for waste management, but it is terribly wasteful with the water supply. I would rather find a way to reclaim as much water as possible with a waste-filtration system of some sort.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #2880049 -

I've seen those light-tube systems before, yes! I definitely want to incorporate them somehow into the system, and it would be VERY easy to use fiber-optics as the transport for the light. Fiber-optics are extremely flexible so it should be easy to route the light anywhere in the house that you need it, even to the basement!


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2880206 -

This would be so much easier in a geothermal area

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: zeta]
    #2880326 -

I really think the underground housing idea would alleviate many of our heating and cooling problems...even in the great white north.


--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #2880640 -

This is comes from the musrhoom.

Every see lord of the rings? Very deep messages from that movie.

The shire is a commune!

My dream is to live 100% self sufficient from the american economy. It all starts with this right here. To build a self sufficient house. once you do that, you can expand and move onto food.

Underground is the best idea for solving heating and cooling, like said above. Lights can be candles, or lamp. The should be "solar fields". Areas Full of solar panels that absorb and store energy. Solar fields, combines with wind mills is a great idea.

AS far as the internet goes, thats a tough one, i think when this all happends, the internet will not exist, nor will television.
Music will allways be with us.

lets figure this out

peace and love.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2880689 -

tren, first off we need a location. many of our designs will be location dependant. take windmills for example. most mills need 7mph winds to get everything turning. most places dont have a constant 7mph wind, so generation would be speradic at best.

to be totally suficient, i believe the best was would to mix 19th century and 21st century design.

first thing would be to find a location. imo, it's better to just find a location you like and design around it. that way, you wont just find the best energy location. you actually find a spot you WANT to live. so, i will design for a location i am interested in.

i want a small place in eastern british columbia at the foot of the rocky mountains. this place would be next to a mid-sized creek. i would cut, what i call, a cascading water wheel design, meaning: dig a pool on the side of the hill, off that is a flume that leads over a water wheel into another pond, which leads down a flume, over a water wheel, into another pool, etc. that way, given enough length down the hill, you wouldnt need any major generators. you could go with less expensive alternator style gens that way. just find the minimum number of peak watts and add 10% for "just-in-case" watts. at the end of the "cascading water wheel" run, just return the water to the creek.

as for batteries, i wouldnt use them. they are so expensive, need to be replaced after "X" amount of recharges, and not really needed if you add a margin of "just-in-case" watts to your final numbers. as long as the creek doesnt dry up, (which is a rarety on spring feed mountain creeks) you should always have continuous power.

now for house design, heating, and light. i agree with the above posts that a subterranium home would be most efficient, but for my design it would be totally inefficient. the reason being that i will be living off a mountain stream. to put the home far enough away to be away from the water table and snow melt water runs, i would lose too much power importing the generated power. (the closer you are to the gens, the less power you lose due to wire runs.) i would opt for a stilt system so i could get as close to the creek as possible. for heating and cooling, i would opt for a more traditional design. since i will be in B.C., cooling isnt really a problem. just build the house so that you can open large sections of it to nature and natural wind. as for heating, i would build a loft style cabin, meaning that the sleep platform would be as close to the ceiling as possible. a wood stove would supply heat. i would also build a connected room/building for cooking. that way i could use a wood stove to cook food without having to worry about supplying too much heat to the main cabin during summer months.

in my design, my main souce of used power is a deep freezer for meat and veggie storage. as a naturalist, i have a problem with hunting for sport, but not for food. during spring, fall, and summer, fish should be easily attainable from the creek. as for the rest of the year and for a once a week deal during the warm months, a moose, for example can dress out to over 1000lbs. if 2 people are living in the cabin, they could each eat up to 3/4 of a pound of moose meat (which is delicious) a day and still only have to kill 1 moose a year... not to mention the deer and elk that are in the area. a small garden and pressure cooker for canning (which will run off the wood stove) can supply food for the rest of the year.

as for light at night. i am a huge fan of candles and oil lamps, but energy should be sufficient for a few fluros for the kitchen or whatever.

the water heater would probably be wood heated and gravity fed. just start the fire 30 minutes before you want to take a shower. the waste system would be a creek fed gravity system that goes to a septic tank. no power is used here.

that is how i invision my self sufficient home. any thoughts?

:edited for spelling:

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: automan]
    #2881711 -

The only problem I have with wood heating is the possible environmental impact (I know it will be small...) involved with burning anything. I'm also confident that I could come up with a much more efficient way of producing heat with electricity and passive solar heating.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2882420 -

Quote:
The only problem I have with wood heating is the possible environmental impact (I know it will be small...) involved with burning anything.


fire is not bad for the environment. quite the opposite is true. also, for every tree i cut down for fire, i would plant 2. it must not be too terrible an idea.... i worked for 10000 years :P

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2884799 -

I discussed this with you in IRC, but I'll state it here as well, trendal.

I think the most efficient and convinient (perhaps even the most practical) way of solving your electricity, heating, and water needs is a watermill type design. Skylights always add heat and extra beauty to a home.

One installment I remember my old neighbors built was a large amount of solar panels mounted on their rooftop. I believe this has become quite popular.


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Fold for The Shroomery!

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2887150 -

I'm looking at an idea right now (and may build a small prototype in the next few weeks) for a combined solar-heated thermosiphon and stirling engine to drive a couple alternators.

Details to come...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2887259 -

Lighting inside the house: SolaTube
And for cooking, solar cooking is the only way to go. Solar oven, Solar Grill. it's now hard Solar Cooking

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: automan]
    #2895119 -

i wonder how hard it would be to build a closed system boiler style generator that uses steam to spin a turbine. like the system on nuclear submarines, but using wood as the heat source.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: automan]
    #2895276 -

Not hard at all, I would think. The hardest part would be designing and building an efficient turbine, I think.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2895302 -

As an engineer I can say that would be fucking hard

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: zeta]
    #2895362 -

I wonder if a pre-built turbine could be found and modified to work in this manner?

What about the turbine from a turbo kit?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2896331 -

I was thinking about overhauling the plumbing in
my home.

the premise for the project is that I would create
a dual-piped plumbing waste system controlled
by a foot petal on the floor (or some other switch).

when you are flushing sorta-clean/light-grey water
down drains, you can engage the foot petal which
would divert that water into a holding tank.

this water would then be used solely for irrigation
around the house, possibly using some form of algae
or other biological tool to clean it up a bit.

would allow you to get dual use from your fresh
water system.

just a thought....

ps. love the sig. :smirk:


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: afoaf]
    #2896499 -

I think it's much safer to have two drain systems. You don't want a breakdown or to forget which way your drains are directed and have fecal matter getting into a grey water system. Toilets should go to the municipal sewage system or a septic tank, showers, sinks, wash machines, dishwashers (and maybe roof runoff) can go to a grey water system.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Evolving]
    #2897186 -

definitely.

there are certain appliances/systems that
would automatically go into the sewer.

this would realistically only apply to sinks
and possibly showers.

don't get much roof runoff down here...


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: afoaf]
    #2897234 -

> I think it's much safer to have two drain systems.

That is the way my house is setup... no city water or water wells here... we collect rain that falls on the roof and save it under the house in a cistern for later use... toilets go to a septic tank, but sinks, washing machines, showers, etc all go to a grey water tank which is then used to water the plants and trees in the yard.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Seuss]
    #2897875 -

huge.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: afoaf]
    #2898211 -

Definitely not a bad idea! I was thinking of ways to get as much water recycled as possible! Would certainly make things easier if we used a dual waste system, with the nastier stuff going to a biologic waste management system (a septic tank should work) and the "cleaner" stuff being recycled much faster for use in irrigation and other non-potable uses. I was thinking of using a rain collection system, as well...something quite similar to what Seuss is using!

ps: both quotes are from the same post :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2898863 -

http://jnaudin.free.fr/

check out their energy production projects. some are over-unity devices, >100% efficiency.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Eightball]
    #2903400 -

I don't think >100% efficiency exists. I've taken a good look at a lot of those "over-unity devices" and none of them are very impressive.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2904653 -

> I don't think >100% efficiency exists.

I did an experiment in high school and found a system that had greater than 100% efficiency... took about a year before I found somebody that could explain what was going on. I was playing with hydrogen, measure how much energy was consumed for electrolysis of water at different power levels. At very low power settings, I was getting more energy out of the system than I was putting in. Turns out that the electrolysis of water is an endothermic reaction at low power levels and the extra energy was actually the heat being sucked out of the air around the experiment... as Trendal said, there is no >100% efficiency... otherwise we could create energy from nothing.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2904847 -

what do you think would be the best way to harness geothermal energy? i am looking for something me and a few mechanically minded friends could build.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2907555 -

trendal said:
I wonder if a pre-built turbine could be found and modified to work in this manner?

What about the turbine from a turbo kit?


The biggest problem would be designing/building/certifying a system capable of handling the steam pressure required to get a decent power output
A turbo is a radial flow device, steam turbines are always (AFAIK) axial flow with at least a dozen turbine discs.
I am still looking into this option  :wink:

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: automan]
    #2907563 -

automan said:
what do you think would be the best way to harness geothermal energy? i am looking for something me and a few mechanically minded friends could build.


You could get shaft power from a Stirling cycle
Or get lots of heat using a heat pump
Or even just use a heat exchanger

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2924492 -

This thread is very excellent. This reminds me of Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion House which was supposedly super efficient and cheap. He also had a shower design that used something like a quart of water for a 10 minute shower through the use of a super fine mister.


--------------------

Edited by chunder (07/24/04 08:31 PM)

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: chunder]
    #2933773 -

I've had a yearning in my bones for a home like the one you guys are planing. The most inovative ideas I have seen yet are the earth ships! These things can be as simple or complex and beautifull as you like.

I see a home like the earth ship as a way to escape the traps society has imposed upon us. Once it's built, it pays for it's self!

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: entheoindole]
    #2934258 -

Those are damn sweet!

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas *DELETED* [Re: trendal]
    #2953584 -

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2953756 -

I recently heard about a guy who lived by a busy freeway... he used a 55 gallon drum imbeded in the street attatched to a generator. Always had enough power to sell back to the city.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: poke smot!]
    #2953791 -

poke smot! said:
... you use water to power your house then you can sell electricity back to the power company.


Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 'use water to power your house'?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2985086 -

I just saw and read this thread.  It's my absolute dream to have a house that is self sufficient from the government and economy.  I'm still far away from that in my life, but I wish everyone who is going to do this good luck!  :heart:

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: MOTH]
    #2985992 -

I think my lighting contibution is awesome.
good work funky

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #2986524 -

I've also been reading stuff about breeding chlorella (common green pond algae). Promising stuff, supposedly could hold the answer to world hunger... HEAVY reading if you get into using it as a water purifier, ETC, but as a food supplement it could be grown pretty easily...

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Evolving]
    #3052701 -

Evolving said:
poke smot! said:
... you use water to power your house then you can sell electricity back to the power company.


Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 'use water to power your house'?


Probably the same thing we're looking at as a main source of electricity: a stream or spring on a hill. Some pipes and a simple turbine...and you have your own hydroelectric plant :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: trendal]
    #3061103 -


Edited by paradis (08/28/04 06:12 AM)

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3061202 -

Sounds good. Did you also calculate how much the technical side would cost and how many years it would take to return the investment?


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3061207 -

Why spend any money at all on the house? Look into "cob houses"!


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: Anno]
    #3061214 -


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3061869 -

Cob is pretty cool material... but adobe caught my eye, especially rammed earth... How much cheaper can you get than that??... and I read about using opuntia pulp as an adobe stabalizer.. thats the epitome of living off the land.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas *DELETED* [Re: Anonymous]
    #3062882 -

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: poke smot!]
    #3062989 -


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3063024 -

Cob houses are quite strong. The walls are a foot or two thick at the base. There are cob houses in England from the 1500's that are still lived in today.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Post deleted by Papaver [Re: trendal]
    #3063575 -


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3064502 -

Most places still do not have any building codes about cob houses, though a few states/provinces do. British Columbia does, which is good because that's where I'm planing to live :smirk:

I'm sure you can get them insured if they have been inspected and OK'd by the building inspector.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3068052 -

This site intrigues me.. if this actually works then I think the plans should be distributed for free - http://www.fuellesspower.com .. but they are pretty cheap, and if they didn't work, people would find out quick.

wait I have more

http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/index.html

http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm

http://users.erols.com/iri/


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3068089 -

Quote:
The only problem I have with wood heating is the possible environmental impact (I know it will be small...) involved with burning anything. I'm also confident that I could come up with a much more efficient way of producing heat with electricity and passive solar heating.



For the pollution aspect, I think masonry stoves, made from either brick, stone, or cob, are efficient, reduce overall pollution due to their design, and are extremely pleasant to have in a structure (radiant heat feels soooo nice).

They don't pollute as much because after you get the inner mass warmed up (to about 1200 F.), very little CO escapes from your wood fuel without becoming further oxidized. The walls on masonry stoves are extremely thick, which means you build one large fire during the evening (and morning in the winter) and the heat slowly leaches out through the walls throughout the day. Do a search for masonry stoves on the net to get a better explanation than I'm doing here.

As for the structure itself, whatever's in it I'd advise making it out of either cob (which enjoys a bit more popularity in Canada due to the fact that there are less bureacratic crackheads in Canada than in the states) or strawbale, both of which hold the temperature of a structure constant much better than 'modern' framing and design. This is going to help you out when it comes to overall energy consumption in your structure.

Here's an example of cob (I built my dog's house out of it):

-nearly completed-



-roof in place-



-complete-



This stuff is easy to work with because you can sculpt it. And if you have enough rubber or waterproofing materials(I used a waterbed mattress cut in half to shield the roof from moisture there on the dogs house), the upside is you can make a single story with a flat or only slightly slanted roof covered with sod or even a small garden. This helps with temperature retention even more. Be sure to install radon detectors in any such structure due to the lack of massive air circulation you'd have in a 'normal' house that kicks you in the balls in the heating dept every month. Radon sucks.


Ok, that's all I have.


--------------------
2004: The year telemarketing started to shrivel up like a cold pair of nuts.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Shroomism]
    #3069208 -

Tesla pantented a number of magnet-run dynamos for producing power...

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #3070672 -

your dogs house would have been even cooler if you'd have bade it a cob-igloo.


--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3181290 -

Yeah, I researched it and decided I am in fact gonna build a cob house. My newest idea is for hydroelectric power generation:

there would be a series of hydroelectric generators. Water would fall by gravity through the generators in the series, creating power. A pump would pump the water back to the top so you could get it so there was a continuous flow of water and power being generated.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3181309 -

What you're talking about is a perpetual motion machine...which is impossible, the ammount of energy it would take to pump the water would be more than that generated by the water itself.


--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #3181928 -

Nope. A pump? A pump to pump water wouldn't use up all the energy of a bunch of generators. It's hardly impossible, or even that hard. Quit doing so many drugs.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3182159 -

Hooty is right, paradis. The Laws of Thermodynamics prohibit the idea you have from working. You would find that it would take more power to pump water to a certain height than you could extract from water falling from that height.

Ie: "you can't get something for nothing". Why do you think all hydroelectric power plants use water that falls naturally from a height, instead of pumping it up there themselves?

Your best bet is to find land on a sloap with a stream running downhill. There are small turbines available which can extract nearly 100% of the energy from the falling water, and I'm sure you could get a few kW from even a small stream if you have enough height.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3182458 -

trendal said:
Hooty is right, paradis. The Laws of Thermodynamics prohibit the idea you have from working. You would find that it would take more power to pump water to a certain height than you could extract from water falling from that height.


Exactly.


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anno]
    #3182881 -

Anno and Trendal are right about Hooty being right. Free energy scams have been around as long as the power companies have. Some of them are really funny! I liked the one at http://www.fuellesspower.com/ for an "electrolyser fuel cell" that can "split water atoms".

This sounds like an interesting project you guys have. I looked into micro-hydroelectric systems a while back for a stream on my own property.

I estimated the flow rate of the stream at 100 gallons per minute using the bucket method. I checked the grade with a transit and found 50 feet of available head from an old mill pond to a possible generator site downstream. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, my calculations showed 0.9 kW of potential power for this flow rate at this height. The manufacturers that make these micro-hydro systems claim to achieve a little bit better than 50% overall efficiency for a correctly sized turbine and generator. At 50% efficiency, the stream could produce power at a rate of 0.45 kW, which should total about 324 kWH per month. On my last electric bill, the power company charged me 0.086 $/kWH. So if I could use or store electricity at full load, my system might save me 28$ per month at the most.

The turbine, generator, and control valve cost around 5,000$. PVC pipe to supply the water is around another 1,000$. Weekly rental for a backhoe or track excavator to bury the pipe is about 1,000$. My biggest problem is that the hillside is rocky enough prevent digging over some pretty long sections.

After evaluating this much I kind of lost interest. Maybe someday I will look into it again.

Let me know if you guys have any ideas for burying/covering water pipe on a rocky mountainside.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anno]
    #3182955 -

Here is a picture to give you an idea of the type of stream and the conditions I was talking about.


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #3183224 -

Oh, well excuse me then. Seemed like a good idea to me.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3183556 -

Don?t worry man you?re not the first person to have this idea....



--------------------
Without love in the dream
It will never come true

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Hooty]
    #3543691 -

I've been looking into living off the grid for a while now. Cob is deffinatley the way to go. I got some books you should check out if you are interested.
The Hand-Sculpted House: A Philosophical and Practical Guide to Building a Cob Cottage (The Real Goods Solar Living Book)
by Ianto Evans, Michael G. Smith, Linda Smiley, Deanne Bednar

Everything you need to know about building a house of cob.

And for getting the land to begin with, check out:
How to Buy Land Cheap
by Edward Preston

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas *DELETED* [Re: trendal]
    #3544455 -

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x


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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: poke smot!]
    #3544703 -

How about using a Biogas Generator (uses methane) to produce electricity? all you need is lots of animal dung which im sure farmers would be willing to give you.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: nick_hopton]
    #3545029 -

I heard alot of people talking about living off the grid and selling power back to the power company..

This is against the law and for a good reason.

At times the power company will kill the power for some kind of major repair, beacause of severe weather ect.. When these people go to fix the lines they assume the power has been shut off, when infact you are still pumping power into the live grid..

Their may be ways around this(im no expert) but this was an issue that I came across..
At my house we are not 100% self sufficiant but were better than most.. Thick window blinds, and nice big wood heater which we also use for cooking. We have experimented with wind power but the government (Canada, saskatchewan) seems to have a chunk of coal up there ass.. We have 2 small generatorse atm that power lights on our deck.. But its just direct power so they only work when its windy.. and who hangs out on the deck when its windy :S..

Good luck to everyone in there self sufficiant homes.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Legoulash]
    #3558906 -

Rah said:
I heard alot of people talking about living off the grid and selling power back to the power company..

This is against the law and for a good reason.

At times the power company will kill the power for some kind of major repair, beacause of severe weather ect.. When these people go to fix the lines they assume the power has been shut off, when infact you are still pumping power into the live grid..



It's not against the law, but most provinces require that any power going back into the grid meets their standards (easily met) and their safety requirments (not so easily met) that includes an automatic switch that prevents your power from going into the grid when there is a power outage.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: spud]
    #3578152 -

This is my idea for a gravity waterflow cob water heater:

The water inlet and outlets are regulated by valves. You'll have to fill the tank up with water then build te fire to heat it. The tank is a metal drum/barrel. There is a cavity underneath it for the fire and the entire thing is encased in a thick layer of cob to help retain heat and keep the water warm long after the wood burns up. I plan to line the fire chamber with stones as well.



click the picture below:

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3578172 -

In theory yes, in reality...well....

The thing is, you have to have all your system filled with water, and no air.
This is gonna be difficult if the system is not under pressure. If you have air in your system, the water won't circulate. You would have to find a way to fill up your system without air.

Now, if you have a pressurized system, the whole thing won't work as illustrated, since it can not be open to the outside the was it is now.....
So, all sorts of problems arise....


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anno]
    #3578178 -

Quote:
The thing is, you have to have all your system filled with water, and no air.


Why? Why could I not just open the IN valve and fill it to how much water I wanted then close the IN valve. Heat it up. Then just open the OUT valve and let the hot water fall?

Quote:
If you have air in your system, the water won't circulate.

It doesnt need to circulate. It just needs to be heated up and then you turn the valve and let the hot water fall out into the hot water pipes.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3578195 -

> It doesnt need to circulate.

I see....
So you are going to use a pump to bring it back?


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anno]
    #3578205 -

Now I get it: this is just meant to be a water heater? Like a big pot?
Sure, why not.

I thought you were going to use it to heat your house........


--------------------
Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anno]
    #3578209 -

Ah, okay.
Correct, this is simply a water heater.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3582669 -

Wouldn't another pipe/pathway to the fire for air flow allow for a hotter fire? It would feed it more oxygen. Just a thought.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: spud]
    #3582681 -

Yeah, that actually be pretty essential. You know, I'm sure I missed some shit. Thanks for the input.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3582688 -

Yeah, there are a few things that could be improved upon. Overall it's pretty fucking sound though.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3583926 -

I didn't see anything about the actual structure. May I suggest going dome?

Some info:
http://www.monolithic.com/thedome/thedome/index.html


Quote:
Throughout history, the dome has been the architectural form of choice wherever efficiency and strength are required of a structure. From the simple igloo that shelters the Arctic hunter throughout the ravages of a blinding storm, to the awe-inspiring magnificence of the Sistine Chapel, the dome has been used in every culture, on every continent, as one of man's most versatile buildings.

Today, the modern construction techniques and materials reinforce the dome's position as the most classically versatile of all structures. The insulated concrete dome is the ideal solution wherever strength combined with low construction and maintenance costs are called for. Compared to other types of structures, the dome encloses more volume with the greatest floor area, and the least amount of surface area and perimeter. Superbly energy-efficient, firesafe, and with an inherent strength that enables it to withstand whatever nature throws at it--hurricanes, earthquakes, even tornadoes. It is no wonder that the modern concrete dome is experiencing a surge of popularity throughout the world.

Dealing with the unpredictability of weather is rarely a factor in dome construction. Since most of the construction process takes place under the sheltering umbrella of an inflated form, work goes on regardless of the weather. Dome construction is rapid and cost-efficient compared to other construction techniques. Modern insulated concrete dome construction combines several materials to create a strong, efficient, weather-proof structure. Compared to other types of structures for the same application, the insulated concrete dome is 50-75% more energy-efficient.




http://midwest.fws.gov/ashland/mtan/mtan...n%20Aquaculture


--------------------

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Shroomism]
    #3590898 -

Great idea! Ive been looking into this for awhile and will have one built soon.If no one minds ill post these pics. :thumbup: :smile:







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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3591863 -

I've started experimenting with papercrete. I have a small slab that has been drying in the bathroom for a few days now.

It has hardened up fairly well. I could see building a house out of this stuff, you would just have to protect it from moisture.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3591996 -

im tired adn cant get into this thread yet, but think about roots. they will demolish many types of "eco concrete" type things. underground housing and "papercrete" stuff i can only assume would lead to bad news....perhaps killing the trees by the house would be an idea?

we used gravity for our water before, and it is really the best way environmentally speaking. but we, 2 adults, need more water than what rained so we had to get a pump and pump water up to the container. now we have it on the ground for convenience.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Cosm]
    #3593148 -

I believe I had earlier suggested "The Farm", especially to paradis, as it is in his home state.

Here's a some pics from fall 2 years ago. Note that most if not all of the pictured were still under construction.

Geodesic Dome




Straw Insulated Cabin





Mud/Straw House








Functional/decorative Outdoors



A Finished Roof


A really cheap "Hippy Shanty"



--------------------
To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: kadakuda]
    #3593749 -

I wasn't planning on making a papercrete foundation, just a dome. Probably with a concrete foundation.

I wouldn't try using papercrete below ground level at all as part of the house. I would think it could make a functional bookshelf or other internal structures.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3593819 -

oh ya i agree. i would personally want a concrete foundation as well. but am fairly ignorant to all tehse cob and similar style things. they just seem likely candidates for underground failure.

i got my savings acount setup, im saving up for some acreage...i will probably just be moving a small cheap house or trailer onto it and then slowly as tiem goes on and money comes in build my own eco friendly dwelling. this thread is pretty cool, cant wait to see more ideas.


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: kadakuda]
    #3601640 -

givin a little more thought about locaction.  undergound is a good idea but perhaps thinking of a cliff side would be beneficial.  im think of facing it towards sun and have a whole side exposed with the back and partial sides underground rather than the whole bottom. 

few reasons.  first it will not insulate withe the exposed part as well.  but you will have the sun.  second, rain.  underground flooding would be a big thinker.  on a slope, espcially if you could design with bed rock, you can easily avoid flooding....cheap.  also larger plants are less likely to plague you with roots. 

i had better reason but i cant fricken remember them :frown:  and when i say on a slop i mean at the base or somewhere where its flat to put the house, but the rock behind still goes down...if that makes any sense.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: kadakuda]
    #3603307 -

If you are on a sloap you may also have the option of using water for power with a small turbine.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: trendal]
    #3604674 -

if your so lucky to have a stream.  or do you mean make a collection thing and channel it through a generator?

i was talking to my dad this weekend about this stuff and he was telling me of all sorts of these types of things around here and on the golf islands.  i never knew.  he's been hassled lots from various inspectors and such so he's starting to get into living off the grid so he can jsut say fuck off and not worry about having power cut off.  this move he took has taken him 1.5 years and cost 40k in inspection fees, permits, lawyers, taxes and all taht shit.  to nothing.  and it was a $110,000 peice of property.  i am seriously considering never buying property in bc now.  he has been shafted so hard, and jsut wants to live out his retirment on his land.  fucking pisses me off.  anyway :smile:  ya water down a hill be good :grin:


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: kadakuda]
    #3607015 -

*slope :smile:


--------------------
To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: debianlinux]
    #3731907 -

bump

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Re: Living Off the Grid - Stage 1: Project Conception/Ideas [Re: Anonymous]
    #3866644 -

i am really quite surprised that no one has mentioned http://earthshelter.com/


--------------------
At last you know what the ineffable is and what ecstasy means. Ecstasy! The mind harks back to the origin of that word. For the Greeks ekstasis meant the flight of the soul from the body. Can you find a better word than that to describe the beshroomed state? In common parlance, among the many who have not experienced ecstasy, ecstasy is fun, and I am frequently asked why I do not reach for mushrooms every night. But ecstasy is not fun. Your very soul is seized and shaken until it tingles. After all, who will chose to feel undiluted awe, or to float through that door yonder into the Divine presence? - 1961 Wasson Botanical Museum Leaflets, 19: 137.

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