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InvisibleAlien
Galactic Shaman

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,849
Loc: Jupiter's Moon
Post deleted by Administrator
    #1671230 - 06/29/03 12:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
-Alien :cool:

Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Alien]
    #1671243 - 06/29/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

good if used by good people and made for good purposes

bad if used by bad people and made for bad (or poorly calculated) purposes.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Alien]
    #1671413 - 06/29/03 02:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I've got no problems with them at all. I think people that make a big deal out of it need to shut up, period. They don't think things out logically. That "it's tampering with god's creations" crap is an invalid argument.

Either you can have crops that produce a 100% natural pesticide on their own because they were engineered that way, or they can hose the crops down with a synthetic pesticide that could be carcinogenic or mutagenic. Hmmm... hard choice.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Gumby]
    #1671482 - 06/29/03 02:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

-----I've got no problems with them at all. I think people that make a big deal out of it need to shut up, period

get educated sucker, read up on how gmo's have failed again and again. find out how multi-nationals take over local agriculture with their patented genetics and terminator crops.

theory doesnt always work out as well as people hope.


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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/29/03 02:55 PM)


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InvisibleAlien
Galactic Shaman

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,849
Loc: Jupiter's Moon
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Gumby]
    #1671548 - 06/29/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
-Alien :cool:

Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Alien]
    #1671579 - 06/29/03 03:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Sure when you speed up/tamper with evolution things will be unpredictable. The thing that I was really getting at, was the health issue. It came out really garbled. I was tired and cranky.

My main point was: genetically engineered crops pose no more health risks than normal crops(notice I did not say organically grown) do.


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InvisibleAlien
Galactic Shaman

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,849
Loc: Jupiter's Moon
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Gumby]
    #1671701 - 06/29/03 05:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
-Alien :cool:

Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Alien]
    #1671783 - 06/29/03 05:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

GumbyDude you cannot prove such as statement, all you can ever say is that so far there is no evidence to indicate that GM crops pose more health risks than normal crops. That doesnt mean that such evidence might not be forthcoming in the future. Therefore ones confidence in GM crops is based on a sufficient number of rigorous studies being conducted.

I am not against GM crops on principal, but i dont think anywhere near enough research has been done. I think the corporations involved are far to eager to make a profit. This is something that there is no going back from, so I think we should be proceeding with much more caution.

A recent study showed that genes added into crops migrated into intestinal bacteria in the human gut, this is an alarming result and certainly indicates more research is needed.

We are lucky in the UK in that no GM food is on sale. There are a few fields of GM crops but they are often destroyed by protesters - I agree with this action because I dont think enough lab research has been done to justify allowing GM crops into the environment. A group of crop trashing protesters was recently found 'not guilty' when the judge determined they were acting in the public interest.


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:sleepingcow:  :penguinmonkey: :blah:

JOIN MAPS -> www.MAPS.ORG


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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: MetaShroom]
    #1671818 - 06/29/03 06:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'd rather eat food that has been designed to be healthier, and stronger agains't diseases and insects, than regular foods which are very dependant on pesticides, fungicides, fertilizers, and who knows what other chemicals. I see it as a happy alternative to the current methods used to produce our crops.

...and have you seen the strawberries this year..? They're as big as apples, its awesome!


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Jared]
    #1672188 - 06/29/03 09:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

dude: My main point was: genetically engineered crops pose no more health risks than normal crops(notice I did not say organically grown) do.

really? can i see the information from the research study youve been reading?


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Invisiblemicro
bunbun has a gungun
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Jared]
    #1672275 - 06/29/03 10:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Genetically modified foods offer a whole host of benefits


Cotton is the number one most pesticide intensive crop in the world, because of new GM varieties; pesticide use has been virtually eliminated with this crop.

In Hawaii, the Papaya mosaic virus nearly eliminated the local farms. It spread to almost all plants on the island in 4 years. Today Hawaiian papayas are all genetically modified plants, because they are resistant to this virulent disease.

In the 3rd world, vitamin A deficiency is common. Golden rice (rice with a vitamin A gene) was given (for free) to them to reduce this horrible affliction.

Insulin prices have been dropping because of Genetics. There are now sheep, which have a human insulin protein sequence, attached to a casein promoter. Casein is only produced in Milk; so the sheep produce human insulin in their milk. The insulin is extracted at high titers; it far surpasses the yield of the previous method, bacterial bioreactors. Oh by the way, that process is also a product of genetic engineering.

The gene for rice tiller formation has been ID'd. This means that soon rice will be made which produces FOUR TIMES the amount of food. That’s a conservative estimate.

The first successful application of Gene therapy occurred. The bubble boy disease was eradicated in 8 of 10 cases

Luddites and demagogues use the lack of control to justify distrusting industry (a pest resistant crop could cross with a wild one yielding a pest resistant weed). In the same paragraph, they lament the inclusion of terminator technology (GM foods are unable to procreate) as brazen profit taking by greedy corporations.

If you don' like GM, go argue with a starving child in Africa, a diabetic or one of those 8 lucky children who can now lead a normal life.


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: micro]
    #1672902 - 06/30/03 03:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"Biotechnology Will Feed the World" and Other Myths
by Karen Charman

Monsanto and other corporate proponents of genetic engineering are using a form of emotional blackmail to get people to accept this new technology. They claim biotechnology will be a savior and fix many of the very real and pressing problems that the Monsantos of the world created in the first place.

Monsanto's past record as a chemical manuufacturer does not inspire confidence in its environmental stewardship. Witness Times Beach, Missouri. The town was so contaminated with dioxin that in 1982 the federal government ordered it to be evacuated. Monsanto has continually denied any connection with the catastrophe, yet laboratory documents were found showing that large concentrations of PCBs in town soil samples were manufactured by Monsanto.

The thing about the past, as opposed to the future, is that facts about it are harder to fabricate. Rather than recall the past polluting activities of today's biotech industry leaders, government and agribusiness interests prefer to talk about the technology's promise for the future, casting biotechnology as the answer to some of humanity's deepest and oldest aspirations. The fundamental contradiction in this message is that while on the one hand they want to present biotechnology as something new, powerful, and revolutionary, at the same time they want to reassure us that that what they are doing is cautious, prudent, safe and in keeping with age-old agricultural traditions.


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Biotech Myth #1: Biotechnology is nothing new. The use of genetic engineering to improve food crops is merely a natural extension of plant breeding techniques that have been used since time immemorial. Promoters of agricultural biotechnology insist that genetic engineering is just a faster and more precise way to improve crops than traditional plant breeding methods, which can take several generations of breeding and therefore be a lot more time-consuming.

Fact: While it is true that conventional breeding methods have yielded a wide variety of plants and animals that did not exist previously, the genes that produce those traits have come from within their own or closely-related species. Modern genetic engineering can take genes from a species such as a fish or a virus and place them into an entirely different species, such as a tomato. This gives humans--actually, corporations--radical new powers, with unpredictable consequences.

Biotech Myth #2: Biotech foods are the most extensively researched and regulated food products ever.

Fact: Every industry likes to pretend that its products are the most extensively researched and regulated products in existence. The nuclear power industry has made this claim, as have the makers of vinyl chloride, dioxin, fen-phen, MSG and Olestra.

Back in 1992, the FDA decreed that genetically engineered foods were no different than conventional foods. Under FDA law, unless a food is "generally regarded as safe" (GRAS), a legal determination, it must be thoroughly tested. Because biotech foods have been determined "GRAS," they undergo no independent safety testing. Instead, government regulators rely on biotech companies to do their own safety tests and also determine themselves if the product in question is GRAS.

Testing biotech crops for their environmental safety is equally lax. It is up to the USDA to ensure that genetically modified crops are ecologically safe. The New York Times recently reported that the agency has not rejected a single application for a biotech crop and that many scientists say "the department has relied on unsupported claims and shoddy studies by the seed companies."

Biotech Myth #3: Genetically engineered crops will allow us to reduce, if not eliminate, environmentally toxic pesticides and fertilizers. Biotechnology is therefore good for the environment.

Fact: So far, the opposite has been true. The vast majority of genetically engineered crops currently on the market have been modified to either withstand herbicide (so that more can be sprayed) or produce their own insecticide.

This year, more than half of the US soybean crop was genetically engineered to survive spraying with Monsanto's best-selling weedkiller, Roundup. An analysis of 8,200 university research trials revealed that farmers planting Roundup Ready soybeans are using two to five times as much of the herbicide as farmers growing conventional varieties. Chuck Benbrook, who reported the results of the studies, said nobody is testing the crops for increased residues of Roundup. The EPA, moreover, has raised the allowable residue limits for Roundup on forage crops.

Producing a plant that can make its own insecticide so that farmers don't have to spray insecticides may sound like a good idea, but anything more than the most superficial consideration reveals otherwise. Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) is a natural soil bacterium that destroys the digestive tracts of certain very pesky insects, like the Colorado Potato Beetle and the European Corn Borer. It is one of the safest insecticides known and has been used in spray form by organic farmers for years. Biotech companies have engineered crops--corn, cotton, canola, and potatoes--with a Bt gene so that Bt crops express the toxin in every cell of the plant. Such widespread use of the toxin will eventually make the bugs it targets resistant to it. That's just evolution, plain and simple. The loss of Bt, which is currently used sparingly by organic farmers, will deprive sustainable agriculture of one of its most effective tools.

Another point that biotech promoters never mention is that unlike other forms of pollution, genetic pollution produces live organisms that can grow, reproduce, mutate, and migrate. For that reason, genetic pollution may cause greater long-term harm than the petrochemical toxins now plaguing the planet, as Jeremy Rifkin observes in his book, The Biotech Century.

Already there have been instances of genes escaping much farther than anyone predicted. Harvard geneticist Richard Lewontin was quoted in a New York Times Magazine article last year saying, "There's no way of knowing what the downstream effects will be or how [genetic engineering] might affect the environment. We have such a miserably poor understanding of how the organism develops from its DNA that I would be surprised if we don't get one rude shock after another" (emphasis his).

Biotech Myth #4: Biotechnology will increase crop yields, help farmers and rebuild rural economies.

Fact: So far, the opposite has been true. Aside from throwing corn and soybean growers into a tailspin because of the international consumer revolt against genetic engineering, 8,200 university research trials comparing the performance of different varieties of soybeans show that yields of genetically engineered herbicide resistant soybeans are lower than comparable conventional varieties. Since more than half of the soybeans planted this year were Roundup Ready varieties, the 5-10 percent yield drag is a significant drop--some 80 to 100 million bushels.

The contracts governing the use of transgenic seeds are not exactly farmer-friendly, either. Genetic engineering turns the seeds themselves into "intellectual property," so the farmers using the seeds don't legally own them. Monsanto likes to use the analogy of leasing a car--at the end of the lease, the car is returned. This new ownership arrangement makes it illegal to engage in the time-honored practice of saving seeds, a practice which is especially common in the Third World. In the United States and Canada, Monsanto pressed this concept to the point of hiring private investigators to swipe plants from farmers who didn't buy their seeds to see if they are planting Monsanto's transgenic varieties. Monsanto has also encouraged its farmers to snitch on neighbors they suspected of planting transgenics without paying for them. There's even a case in Canada of an elderly farmer who is being sued by Monsanto for intellectual property theft. He swears he never planted Monsanto's transgenic seed, yet it showed up in his field, quite possibly through genetic drift--i.e., contamination of his crops by wind-blown, genetically-engineered pollen. While this type of harassment continues, genetic engineering can be considered a "benefit" to rural communities only insofar as farmers enjoy living in a police state.

Biotech Myth #5: Biotechnology is the only hope we have to feed a growing world population.

Fact: Starvation and malnutrition are very real problems, but they are caused by unequal distribution of wealth, not by food scarcity. According to the United Nations World Food Program, there is currently more than enough food produced to feed everyone on the planet an adequate and healthy diet. The reason that approximately 800 million people go hungry each year is that they don't have access to food by either being able to afford it or grow their own. Biotechnology, by turning living crops into "intellectual property," increases corporate control over food resources and production. Rather than alleviate world hunger, biotechnology is likely to exacerbate it by increasing everybody's dependence on the corporate sector for seeds and the materials


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: iglou]
    #1672911 - 06/30/03 03:59 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

micro: In the 3rd world, vitamin A deficiency is common. Golden rice (rice with a vitamin A gene) was given (for free) to them to reduce this horrible affliction.


well, if you did some research you might find out that in the 3rd world, vitamin a deficeincy is a tell-tale sign of a lack of nutritional diversity. meaning....all they have to eat is rice.

anyways, I have a sri lankan friend who used to work for the WORLD BANK, and he quit because of their GMO programs, because they dont work, and only help multi-nationals control the market and destroy local agricultural industry. (he now teaches econ at a canadian university)


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/30/03 04:02 AM)


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OfflineJackal
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Alien]
    #1672926 - 06/30/03 04:12 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think its an important part of our evolution, although I don't think its the modified genetics which could cause problems for humankind.

Hypothetical Situation: A super productive strain of corn is produced which is capable of growing in the harshest of environments. This basically spells the end of World hunger - population boom - other resources such as fuels and clean water become in short supply - catastrophy.

I'm not convinced that the manmade dna is a risk, most things share an abundance of dna anyway, and mutations do occur naturally.

If humankind decides to proceed with this then we need to carefully predict the possible implications of what we do.

Anyway how can you be against it, think of the novelty! Check out this fish which those crazy Japanese have 'engineered'



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Invisiblemicro
bunbun has a gungun
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Registered: 05/09/03
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Jackal]
    #1673496 - 06/30/03 10:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Iglou: Monsato?!?! PCBs?!?! What are you talking about? What the hell does this have to do with GM foods? They were making electronics -- transformers and capacitors -- NOT biotech food. So, in other words, you are either just spewing out a random example that has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about, or you are simply misinformed. Radicals ARE usually misinformed because they are ignorant (not *always* the case.)

A biotech lab doesn't create NEARLY that much waste, and certainly no PCB's.

I'm in work right now, so I'll post more later when I have the time (with the help of my roomate -- he's a guru on the subject.) Just wanted to get the PCB thing out of my system.

Oh -- and Atomikfunksoldier -- yes, I know this due to a lack of balanced nutrition -- I just always thought this fell into the "no shit" category. Are you suggesting we just shouldn't help them? I mean world hunger and malnutrition are SERIOUS problems -- if you have a somewhat immediate (plausable) solution I'm all ears, but if not, as I doubt you do, let's help the people who are starving the best we can. I give the biotek people a lot more credit for actually doing something, than I give to you, a little pissant, who has done nothing, sitting on his computer badmouthing the people who have.

People like you make me sick.

--
Micro


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Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,720
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: micro]
    #1673512 - 06/30/03 10:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I just always thought this fell into the "no shit" category.



Actually, you're right. It does fall smack into the middle of that category.

Pissant is a good description.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleWyrdless
Stranger
Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 15
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: iglou]
    #1673628 - 06/30/03 11:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Reply to iglou


The truth is that all large multinationals are greedy and have to be stopped. They are stronger than some governments and because of their international reach, have immense power. They can only be stopped by everybody not buying their products.

BUY LOCAL

If NO ONE buys McDonald's then McDonald's would go out of business in a few months. If you want to stop companies the ONLY way is boycott and shareholder action.

However corporate greed is not what this is about. Biotechnology is the most powerful science to be discovered in many years. Its potential could change the surface of the globe and only it can provide us with the technology we need to leave the planet sustainably.

Micro has listed six specific examples of advancements of irrefutable excellence. They have occurred in the last seven years. They are all specific examples. Anyone could make a list two pages long, just like that, simply by looking with an open mind.

Now I am going to respond to each "so called" biotech myths

Biotech myth one.> Biotechnology is not selective breeding. It allows one to add outside genes. For example, to make virus resistance, a highly characteristic plant virus protein is put into the plant. It could be the binding site or a surface antigen for the virus. The plant now "knows" what the virus looks like and its immune system (sort of) is inoculated against the virus. This is a totally natural process, which is sped up by human intervention. This is in fact how natural plant resistance to viruses occurs. (By the way mosaic virus binding sites don't effect humans because otherwise humans would get mosaic virus)

Uhh ohh! that means you (and by you I mean ALL of humanity since the first proto human) have been eating plant products which have plant virus protein.

Biotech myth two> I read science magazine and follow this very closely. Show me the money. Name a report of a biotech food hurting a human.

Biotech myth three> Biotech crops designed to use less pesticides DO use less pesticides. Otherwise no one would have bought their low pesticide seeds for the last 10 years. After all why would they buy expensive seeds if they weren't saving money on the other end? Would you? That is only a market example. Check out the pesticide difference between GM Cotton and regular cotton. It's HUGE.

Biotech pesticides ARE natural. They all come from pre existing plants as you mentioned. Pesticides WE make are dangerous. Humans developed Sarin gas from pesticide chemistry.

ANY use of BT is biotech related. Without biotech that technology would never exist.
Bt toxin comes off after every rainfall. So organic farmers would have to re spray after every instance of water getting on them. What effect does that have on the environment?
Having it in the plant means that it doesn't have to be sprayed off after EVERY rain shower thus allowing lower use levels and hence lower adaptation rates by insects.

In case you are interested this is how BT works. The bacteria produces a compound which is an inactive poison. In order to activate it, it needs to be in a bug stomach because it is alkaline (basic). The nature of this poison is that when it is activated they form transmembrane pores, which cause the bug stomach cells to leak. This kills them. Once the stomach wall is destroyed, the bug dies and the bacteria eats the bug.
Since a human stomach is acidic you can NEVER be harmed in this manner.

As you mentioned earlier evolution takes a long time, a resistance won't be developed any time soon.

Biotech myth four> Biotech crops are in fact profitable for the farmer. If they weren't then people all over the world wouldn't have been buying them for the past 10 years. Even though the study is 8,200 trials it doesn't describe the longterm stability offered by permanent bug and disease resistance. The university conditions aren't necessarily similar to the conditions found in nature. Did all of the university studies expose both (Wt/GM) crops to the stress which the GM crop was designed for or where they grown in a sterile greenhouse far from danger? To know this I must read this study to see for myself what the conditions were. Could you post a citation?

Biotech myth five> No one ever claimed biotechnology is the only answer

Biotechnology represents the opportunity to get super crops. It doesn't have to be purchased. It is simply a better product. Who wouldn't want to buy a crop that is resistant to the most common local disease? Think about it. When a mosaic virus hits the fields in your area; all your neighbors would be devastated except you. You would have a full crop in a time when it is scarce. It just makes sense to get that kind of insurance policy against disaster.

You say bad things about biotechnology without thinking about the good.
Biotechnology is the science of programming life. DNA has all of the information needed to create a functioning animal or plant. It is an awesome and complex thing.

Of course it can be used for bad, but it can also be used for good. See what you think if you ever get cancer.

If you want to say something bad about biotechnology give a specific example, because there are LOTS of examples where it helped people. I'd like to see a citation or a reference to a PHD lead study in a journal, which shows harm. That is the pudding


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Invisibleiglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: micro]
    #1673763 - 06/30/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Monsato?!?! PCBs?!?! What are you talking about? What the hell does this have to do with GM foods? They were making electronics -- transformers and capacitors -- NOT biotech food. So, in other words, you are either just spewing out a random example that has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about, or you are simply misinformed. Radicals ARE usually misinformed because they are ignorant (not *always* the case.)

Monsanto is one of the largest GMO engineering corporations in the world. As for the example of Monsanto and PCBs, it is one example of many of how this corporation cares about ecological protection and the public.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: micro]
    #1673887 - 06/30/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

micro said:
Iglou: Monsato?!?! PCBs?!?! What are you talking about?




Monsanto, not Monsato....

Monsanto is located in St. Louis, Missouri... they invented Round Up and bioengineer food crops to resist the effects of Round Up along with a lot of other stuff.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: Genetically Engineered Foods [Re: Seuss]
    #1674321 - 06/30/03 05:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

micro:

shut the fuck up you ignorant fool, attack my statement not the fantasy of a persona you have dreamed up that represents me.

please, enlighten me as to what you have done to allieviate world hunger, oh nothing? your just a delusional hypocrite, ok great, next time you reply, how about you add to the discussion instead of spewing inane insults? oh you cant because you dont have anything to add? because you're an uneducated drone who accepts everything that multinationals say?

heres a question how many 3rd world countries have you lived in? and how many people do you know from 3rd world countries? (and dont try a lame counter-argument because I have the experience that justifies asking this question).

im not against helping world hunger, if gmo's could work, then I would support them, but in many cases, multi-nationals arent doing shit to help starving kids, they are just maximizing profits, and in the process making it worse for starving kids, so in fact, by opposing gmo programs, I AM HELPING WORLD HUNGER, because bio-diversity, and local control of agriculture IS A NECCESSITY.

please, in your rebuttal, demonstrate your intelligence, im giving you another chance.


--------------------
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