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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups UPDATE - THIS MAY NOW BE POSSIBLE IN NEAR FUTURE
    #19610284 - 02/23/14 09:57 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I had this idea a few weeks ago and have been able to find nothing to suggest it's been attempted.  I know there are several arrays involving radio astronomy, but nothing I've seen in the visible spectrum.  A lot of people have some pretty elaborate and capable telescopes, why hasn't anyone developed software to put these to work together?

Am I wrong to think that having them all focused on the same objects and combining the data should allow for image capturing at levels far beyond what they could do on their own?  Instead of the great cost and time it takes to develop bigger and bigger telescopes, why can't we use all of the existing equipment in a coordinated effort?

EDIT - I don't mean to say that bigger and better telescopes should not be developed, but just that alternate methods be explored as well.

UPDATE

Well it looks like this may work after all if they can improve quantum memory. Instead of the current system of fiber optics that are used to ensure all the photons arrive at the same time and with all of the necessary information, "quantum hard drives" would be able to store all of the information (spin, phase, etc.) and then gathered and combined. Though there are still challenges they talk about in the article.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-astronomy-could-create-telescopes-hundreds-of-kilometers-wide/







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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (05/05/21 12:59 PM)


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #19610891 - 02/24/14 01:57 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I think getting good alignment and working your way around the huge differences between individual 'scope setups is just too much hassle compared to the potential yield of data.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: koraks]
    #19612044 - 02/24/14 12:31 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

My main concern was that having them spread too far apart would change their vantage points and make it difficult to resolve.  On the other hand, this could give some images a bit of depth like a 3D camera.

I realize that alignment would need to be spot on, but so many so called amateurs have computerized mounts I wouldn't think this was such an issue.  Also, consider the programs that are commercially available now to stitch panoramic photo's together - they are able to resolve slight errors in alignment quite spectacularly so why couldn't this be applied to astrophotgraphy as well?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #19612069 - 02/24/14 12:36 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I just posted this to an astronomy forum and this was the first reply I received.

Quote:

In theory, it could work. You are talking about optical interferometry. There are optical interferometry projects in the professional astronomy world.

Applying it to amateur equipment would be beyond the financial capabilities of most amateurs. Interferometry relies on very precise timing and positioning data. Establishing the baseline data for an optical interferometer requires more precision than it does for radio telescopes because the wavelength is several orders of magnitude smaller.




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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblebryguy27007
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #19613632 - 02/24/14 06:59 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Hmmmm, interesting. I had never even considered the possibility of an optical telescope array.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #19614780 - 02/24/14 11:27 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Additional replies;

Quote:

This really is a wonderful question but trying to set up such a system seems likely to be simply beyond our technical capabilities right now. And the expense appears to be unsustainable even for organizations with very deep pockets.

I think there was one of the bigger telescopes which was using two somewhat smaller scopes which were within dozens to hundreds of yards from the main scope in order to increase the effective resolution. The expense was just too much and they shut down one or both of the adjunctive scopes.

You would be talking about making extremely precise distance measurements from one telescope to another - and since tremors/earthquakes would tend to alter that you'd probably have to build a structure from each scope to several other scopes and be constantly monitoring the distance. I guarantee you will not be able to get the environmental impact statement cleared for that one. You'd have many, many governments incredibly upset with you.

You'd also have to develop and mass-produce professional-grade mounts which would be extremely precisely oriented and then calibrated and re-aligned regularly.

You'd have to be constantly monitoring the dust levels on the scopes and getting lights, darks, biases, and flats done on each scope - maybe at varying times through the night.

Focusing may have to be controlled centrally (not sure about that).

In order to get the timing right you might have to have an atomic clock located with each scope in order to ensure synchrony.

You'd have to ensure the power and cooling systems for all the instruments and may have to position a team at each site to maintain and operate the system.

Then you'd have to arrange for the bandwidth to transmit all the data to the central location (or to distributed computing locations) - we're talking a lot of data.

And once you got the data you'd have to have nightmarishly complex software. You'll need to understand things like atmospheric disturbance in the area. Be able to account for light pollution. Correctly process thousands to millions of lights, darks, flats, biases, etc. You'll have to figure out how to account for the person who is using a monochrome camera with one set of filters - while someone else is using a DSLR.

You'll also have to figure out how to handle different scopes using different sized sensors and different sensor orientations with different optics and figure out how to make them all point to the same part of the sky and frame that part of the sky in the same way. I hear of people getting frustrated with AstroTortilla - and this would look utterly nightmarish compared to that. What's more, you might have to default to the lowest common denominator as the standard for the imaging - which means folk using big expensive refractors and incredible imaging instruments which far surpass anything I could buy - might have to be dumbed-down to be the equivalent of my using a webcam with my ETX-80.

If you want an incredible nightmare the DSLR illustrates the problem extremely well. DSLRs have a big problem with mottling. So to do good work with DSLRs you dither - meaning that between each shot you move where you are aiming the sensor just a little. That means that every single sub done appropriately using a DSLR is going to be framed differently. That means that every shot of the sky will be in a somewhat different direction and you're somehow going to have to figure out how to handle that.

It might be fun to try something sort of like this in a small neighborhood - maybe some place like Chiefland (I think that's the name). Over short distances the problems are not as immense although they would still be very large.

But if you want to sort of dumb it down and do something better than the the professional scopes can do on a far more reasonable budget?

Join IOTA. Even with a small scope, a GPS video time inserter and a DVR and a few other things - you can work with IOTA to detect extremely close doubles, help to better understand Lunar geology, and get pretty precise outlines of asteroids (to start with).

You can also work on Jovian Extinction Events for a somewhat bigger budget to do some interesting research.

These things are nowhere nearly as complex as trying to build a large network of amateur scopes. The power is not the same as what you envision, but it still can do some pretty amazing stuff.




Quote:

The twin 10-meter Keck telescopes are a working example of large-aperture optical interferometry.

The cost and complexity of imaging interferometry are far, far beyond anything an amateur is likely to have, or be able to develop.

Among other things, one needs hydrogen masers, a precision beam-line over which the precise distance/time-of-arrival is always known and measurable, motion control systems with 10nm pointing precision, and both adaptive and active optics systems for coordinating and measuring wavefront distortion and timing on all the optical elements in the system.

You also need sodium laser artificial star sources for both focusing, and for the AO system.

The software, computing resources, and engineering skill sets to get this working, keep it working, and make sense of the data from the combiner is also substantial, rare, and costly.




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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #19615073 - 02/25/14 01:38 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
My main concern was that having them spread too far apart would change their vantage points and make it difficult to resolve.  On the other hand, this could give some images a bit of depth like a 3D camera.



That is exactly the reason why you would want to do this in the first place :wink: The added value of the concept lies in the fact that the vantage points are so different.

But like you've found out through the astronomy forum, the exact two hurdles are mentioned are also recognized by the astronomers.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: koraks]
    #19616031 - 02/25/14 10:52 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Well, I realize the different vantage points were the point of this concept, what I was questioning was there a point "too far" away where it wouldn't work.  This was a concern to me because all of the radio arrays I've seen were in relative close proximity to each other.

But, yeah, you were right.  It appears that right now the complexity, or more so the necessity for additional, expensive equipment would dash any hopes of making this a reality.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleLostHippie165
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #20932660 - 12/05/14 12:08 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but Astronomical optical interferometry is possible and does exist. The US Navy currently operates one such array.

The major problem b/w radio interferometry and optical interferometry is the wavelength of observed radiation.

Interferometry is the process of producing interference patterns from the observation of an object from two or more locations. This can either be done by:
-redirecting the incoming radiation to a central location and directly combining prior to recording.
-converting incoming radiation into an electric signal and combining locally prior to recording
-directly recording incoming radiation and combining the recordings later at a central location.

The first option is the primary option for optical interferometry. Identical mirror systems redirect incoming light from the observing location, through vacuum tubes (to minimize interaction/manipulation by optical materials and preserving the waveform as much as possible), and to an optical interferometer that is located in a geometrically central location b/w the two observing locations. The cost of building and maintaining vacuum tubes, and the eventual "splaying" of photons in a beam of light are the limiting factors for optical interferometry baselines.

The 2nd and 3rd methods are being employed for radio astronomy because the lower wavelengths allow for effective determination of the incoming radiation's waveform using current data-acquisition and storage technology. Additionally, the frequency falls below the maximum frequencies that can be accurately amplified and recording without the use of expensive meta-materials. Each observing station must record an accurate approximation of the incoming waveform (on the order of 1+ billion samples per second at 2 bits of data per sample), along with extremely accurate timing data (on the order of  +10^-13 seconds variation per second). Each station's clock must be synced up as close as possible with all other stations (typically done with a travelling atomic clock or using a GPS timing signal). This is so they can simulate direct waveform combination using incoming data to a central location via fiber optics (method 2) or via recordings and a computer at a central location after recording is complete (method 3). It is almost impossible to record an accurate optical waveform with such accuracy, just because of the insanely high frequencies (400-800 THz optical vs. 3kHz-300Ghz radio).

The 3rd option is still in its infancy, and is currently being researched extensively. This method does not have a limiting factor for maximum baseline except for how far we can travel (which means we can have baselines larger than Earth's diameter).

I'm in the process of designing a hobby-level radio telescope for observing the hydrogen line (1420 Mhz) band, that may ultimately be capable of performing very long baseline interferometry (VLBI) if I can get 10-20 people in different locations to build and operate them. The topic is insanely complicated, but presents a huge learning opportunity and is tons of fun to research and develop.

Given that there is some interest in general astronomy on here, I may post a draft of my tek once I get everything up and running.

Cheers :cheersyoufuck:

LostHippie165


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I am agmotes165, check out my bio for details.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Distributed Astronomy - Telescope Array's using home setups [Re: koraks]
    #27295498 - 05/05/21 12:59 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
My main concern was that having them spread too far apart would change their vantage points and make it difficult to resolve.  On the other hand, this could give some images a bit of depth like a 3D camera.



That is exactly the reason why you would want to do this in the first place <img src="https://files.shroomery.org/smileys/wink.gif" alt=";)" title=";)"/> The added value of the concept lies in the fact that the vantage points are so different.

But like you've found out through the astronomy forum, the exact two hurdles are mentioned are also recognized by the astronomers.




Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Well, I realize the different vantage points were the point of this concept, what I was questioning was there a point "too far" away where it wouldn't work.  This was a concern to me because all of the radio arrays I've seen were in relative close proximity to each other.

But, yeah, you were right.  It appears that right now the complexity, or more so the necessity for additional, expensive equipment would dash any hopes of making this a reality.




KORAKS - This article also makes a point that none of the other astronomers I discussed it with did. As I was fearing, with the current method the further away the telescopes are the more difficult this becomes. Right now, the maximum baseline is limited to a few hundred meters, so even if my idea would have worked otherwise, this would have have been the Achilles heel. With this new proposed method, it seems the baselines could be expanded to 10s or 100s of kilometers. The limited factor here would how long the quantum matrix could remain coherent. Right now that is probably only a few hours.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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