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OfflinePsylocybinFiend
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Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes?
    #3830554 - 02/25/05 12:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So I was wondering if you have a BRF cake cased in pasteurized cow dung and it appears the the growth has stopped could you just add more dung in and put the original cased cake into a larger terrarium to add to the size and number or flushes. hope that all makes sense.


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InvisibleNeedMoreSleep
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: PsylocybinFiend]
    #3830593 - 02/25/05 12:17 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

don't think it'd be a good idea to put the mycellium through all those changes. its already gone from colonization to fruiting once. you don't wanna put it back into colonization, than back to fruiting again...


--------------------

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which we must fear most. And that is... the indifference of good men."
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InvisibleDamn_Skippy
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: NeedMoreSleep]
    #3830663 - 02/25/05 12:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

people have done it before... except I have heard of them doing it with used cakes then spawning it to a whole new set of dung


--------------------
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InvisibleNeedMoreSleep
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: Damn_Skippy]
    #3830816 - 02/25/05 12:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

it can be done, worth trying if it won't produce anymore, but its generally not a good idea to take the myc's attention away from fruiting...


--------------------

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil,
which we must fear most. And that is... the indifference of good men."
-Boondock Saints


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: PsylocybinFiend]
    #3830828 - 02/25/05 12:49 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Here's a semi-related success story - using wbs spawn-to-straw.


--------------------
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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: NeedMoreSleep]
    #3831456 - 02/25/05 03:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NeedMoreSleep said:
don't think it'd be a good idea to put the mycellium through all those changes. its already gone from colonization to fruiting once. you don't wanna put it back into colonization, than back to fruiting again...




I don't understand why not... could you explain why that could somehow be worse than simply letting it die altogether?

Isn't this what happens in the wild, when the same patch or area of shrooms cycles from dormancy to fruition throughout the years/seasons?

If done properly, I imagine one could conceivably form a process in which the same casing(s) is(are) continually "refurbished"/renewed in such a manner whereby cultivation consists primarily of continued maintainance rather than the current common practice of "spending out" a casing, then discarding it, then starting from scratch w/ jars and/or spawnbags -- going through all that rigamarole to create another brand new casing.


--------------------
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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: NeedMoreSleep]
    #3831493 - 02/25/05 03:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NeedMoreSleep said:but its generally not a good idea to take the myc's attention away from fruiting...




This is why you would purposefully and fully focus the myc's attention back onto vegetative growth/colonization after introducing the fresh substrate to the casing.

This means dropping air exchange, increasing temperature, closing out light, and increasing humidity back to colonization levels, letting the myc _fully_ develop into the newly mixed-in substrate; after which you would reapply a new, fresh casing layer, wait a couple days, initiate pinning again, then throw the environment back into fruiting conditions; wait for two or three flushes, then repeat the process: substitute approximately half the "spent" casing w/ new substrate, mix it, moisturized to near-saturation... loop.

At least that's my theory... I'm certain people will nuke me if I'm talking out my ass here.

(c8=


--------------------
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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3832557 - 02/25/05 01:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Your theory forgets the biggest factor here: contamination.

Older spawn will be more prone to contamination. It will also be slower (helps the contams). The older the spawn the less chance that you have of not getting contams when you spawn. Do you have the bulk material to waste? If so then try it, it can be done. But why would someone not just toss the cake thats dead? Well because a new cake can be made easily (could have already been colonized while you had those other cakes fruiting and be ready to go) and then you would have a much better chance of not wasting your time and bulk material pasteurizing it just to grow some grean mold, and maybe even possibly affecting other parts of your grow.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinethenewguy05
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: PsylocybinFiend]
    #3832616 - 02/25/05 01:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I had an idea very similar to your buy adding you burned out cakes into a bigger bag.
example: take a casing after it's last flush and place the cake into a
freshly pasteurized bag of straw using the Oven Bag Pasteurizing Tek and grow it kinda like a straw log but a big blob of straw inside the oven bag until birth.


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3833875 - 02/25/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Apologies to the original poster if this is beginning to look like a thread-jack; I hope it's still somewhat relevant to the topic.


Quote:

But why would someone not just toss the cake thats dead? Well because a new cake can be made easily




I totally agree - regarding cakes...

But what I'm on about is regarding casings.

I should have been more explicit, because the original poster was asking about using spent cakes, but I sort of interjected with a similar concept dealing with casings.

The "refurbished casing" technique would ( tersely ) go something like this:

1 - prepare spawn
2 - inoculate spawn
3 - incubate and colonize spawn
4 - spawn to bulk substrate
5 - incubate and _fully_ colonize substrate <*>
6 - initiate pinning conditions
7 - initiate fruiting conditions
8 - harvest 1-3 flushes
9 - cut away half the colonized/"spent" substrate, discard
10 - scrape off casing layer from remaining substrate
11 - substitute discarded portion of old substrate with new bulk substrate, mix
12 - goto step #5, loop

As you can see, the initial 8 steps are standard casing tek, however after that first "boot-strapping", perpetuated flushes become quite easy - steps 9 through 11 are vastly more simple, less error prone and less time intensive than steps 1 through 4.

Again, this is all just untested theory - however it seemed to have in fact worked pretty good for at least one person.

Disclaimer: I have ZERO practical/actual experience at growing anything, let alone mushrooms. This is all wild speculation from an over-exuberant wannabe couch-mycologist.

I'm guessing that this "refurbished" casing technique, in combination with the "hydroponified" casing idea, may possibly take certain applications of the usual, standard bulk cultivation process to a new level of efficiency and convenience. ( please re-read my disclaimer before dispensing with harsh criticism or scorn! (c8= )

* Nutrient Deprivation ... I pay lots of attention to Teonan's posts - here's more on the subject.


--------------------
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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3833992 - 02/25/05 07:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Cakes or casings dont matter.The point is the mycelium is old. When you use old mycelium to colonize new substrate you increase your risk of contams. To me contams are feared like the grim reaper. If they are in my house, they are imediatly expelled and I certainly dont want to try to cultivate them when new spawn takes a few hours to prep and make and assures many bulk tubs and all are contam free.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3834624 - 02/25/05 09:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

scatmanrav said:The point is the mycelium is old. When you use old mycelium to colonize new substrate you increase your risk of contams.




As a small added precaution, it would be reasonable to add h202 when near-saturating the new:old substrate mix in step 11.

It would also be beneficial to inoculate the newly "refurbished" casing with several points of liquid culture mycelium - from the same isolate of course.

The above, in addition to introducing the casing back into the proper/optimal colonizing conditions ( step 5 ), where the mycelium can focus 100% on vigorously reestablishing vegetative growth ( producing new mycelium ) - I think would be more than sufficient in lowering contam issues down to a minimal. ( contam potential would still exist anyhow when going through steps 1 through 4... )

More theories based only from what I've read on the shroomery, but I'm convinced it's worth giving it a try... at the very least, it'll be an enjoyable and educational exercise in futility! <grin>

None of this is for the purpose of cultivating any illegal or controlled substances/organisms.


--------------------
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InvisibleRoadkill
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3834663 - 02/25/05 09:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

VALIS said:
Quote:

scatmanrav said:The point is the mycelium is old. When you use old mycelium to colonize new substrate you increase your risk of contams.




As a small added precaution, it would be reasonable to add h202 when near-saturating the new:old substrate mix in step 11.

It would also be beneficial to inoculate the newly "refurbished" casing with several points of liquid culture mycelium - from the same isolate of course.




I agree with scat.

And if you are going to try this...just use some old chunks of mycelium from the casing to spawn some more bulk substrate.

Don't go putting in any liquid mycelium in there...that is really going to bring on contams.

I wouldn't even bother with any of this....personally.


--------------------
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Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: Roadkill]
    #3834794 - 02/25/05 10:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

VALIS said:As a small added precaution, it would be reasonable to blah blah <snip>.

It would also be beneficial to blah blah <snip>




I just realized, I should have posed these as questions rather than assertions! :blush:


Quote:

Roadkill said:I wouldn't even bother with any of this....personally.




That somehow served as a reality check...  <grin>

Heheh - thanks man for being so tactfull, very kind of you! 

And thankyou's to Elemicin and scatmanrav for responding to my posts!


Quote:

Don't go putting in any liquid mycelium in there...that is really going to bring on contams.




And there I was actually thinking I new what I was talking about when I said that would be a good idea...

Why would liquid mycelium cause greater risk of contamination?

Thanks!


--------------------
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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3835596 - 02/26/05 03:05 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

VALIS said:
Quote:

RoadKill said:Don't go putting in any liquid mycelium in there...that is really going to bring on contams.





And there I was actually thinking I new what I was talking about when I said that would be a good idea...


Why would liquid mycelium cause greater risk of contamination?





Well, I went searching but was unable to find any info or posts which mention that innoculating/injecting a casing with mycelium from liquid culture would cause or increase contamination.

I've read how innoculating virgin bulk-substrate w/ spores and even liquid culture myc is a bad idea due to the fact that it would take so long for sufficient colonization to take place before contams set in - and I understand that. However, I'd like to understand how/why injecting an already spawned bulk-substrate w/ liquid culture innoculant would somehow increase the risk of contamination - could someone please explain, or point me in the right direction?

Thank you!


--------------------
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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3836150 - 02/26/05 10:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Your adding nutrient water to unsterilized material in an unsterilized environment. How could that not increase your risk of contamination?

When you add spawn there are no uncolonized nutrients left. This isnt a problem. Adding "spawn" (liquid culture) that may or may not have all the nutrients used up (most likly not, because the mycelium probably cant use all of them that mold could) IS a problem.

But again, as roadkill said, I wouldnt bother with any of it.


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3838051 - 02/26/05 06:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be argumentative, the following questions are purely because I'm just not following the logic... honestly, I'm not trying to be dense, and I do appreciate the assistance.

Onward!

Quote:

scatmanrav said:
Your adding nutrient water to unsterilized material in an unsterilized environment. How could that not increase your risk of contamination?




#1: The new/fresh substrate ( composted horse dung w/ shredded straw ) wouldn't be sterilized, but it would be pasturized... which is good for something, for a small time at least. Additionaly, this new substrate ( which, for all intents and purposes, is now acting as spawn ) would include a measured amount of h202.

#2: This "nutrient water" ( the liquid culture mycelium ) would be added after the older ( to-be-refurbished ) substrate was mixed with the newer/fresh substrate described above - thus could hardly be said to be added to unsterilized material... I mean, really - we're basically talking about a 50:50 spawn:substrate here... the older substrate serves as the "spawn", the newer/fresh substrate serves as the "substrate" ( compare that to the usual 1:10 ratio of spawn-to-substrate ). The "spawn" in this case, would be the still-healthy, _fully_ colonized mycelium left from the remainder half of the original casing ( the myc wouldn't be that "old", because you'd do this after the 1st-through-3rd flush [ 2nd probably being optimal ] - you wouldn't totally "flush it 'till it's dead and gone", like what you would do w/ current techniques ).

#3 - Finally, the process resets itself back at the substrate colonization stage ( step 5 ) - which would mean inducing perfect/near-perfect colonization conditions. Such conditions ( I'm guessing ) would prompt the exceedingly quick re-establishment of the mycelium into fully colonized ( nutrient deprived ) substrate. A few days.


Considering the accumulated sum of all these factors, I'm simply not understanding how contams would realistically pose any more of a problem than they usualy do. In fact, I'm thinking there would be less risk... seeing as we're no longer resigned to starting from scratch with steps 1 through 4... which are each quite susceptable to contamination issues.



Quote:

When you add spawn there are no uncolonized nutrients left. This isnt a problem. Adding "spawn" (liquid culture) that may or may not have all the nutrients used up (most likly not, because the mycelium probably cant use all of them that mold could) IS a problem.




We're only talking a few cc's here... added to a 50% pre-colonized mix ... with h202... thrown back into 100% optimal colonization conditions...

I'm having trouble understanding the disconnect.

Are you saying that - given all the rest of this theoretical tek being followed through the same ( which you don't believe is worth while in the first place ) - that it would be better to not include the extra liquid culture mycelium idea?


Quote:

But again, as roadkill said, I wouldnt bother with any of it.




I don't see how it would be a "bother" to decrease effort...

You must mean that you don't think it's worth bothering to experiment with this idea, being certain that it's likely not going to produce the results that I've hypothesized. Which makes more sense.

I've brought this whole thing up to the shroomery, because I think this experiment is worth the risk of failure.

I guess I was just hoping to get more help/pointers/speculation/insight than the mostly "not worth trying", or the relative silence I've recieved so far. Which is fine - it's not as if I'm taking myself too seriously here... I'm merely exploring possibilites, because it's fun. I can't leave things well enough alone, it's my inherent geek nature. Call it Wyle E. Coyote syndrome.

At any rate, all this silence and naysaying is only encouraging me... <grin>

Thanks for listening, any and all advice/input is very much valued.


Beers!


--------------------
Nature is the Technology of the Divine.


Edited by VALIS (02/26/05 07:10 PM)


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OfflineTantalus
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3838118 - 02/26/05 07:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

For all this you're forgetting one thing that completely throws your plan out the window. Mycelium senesce. Do a search, it's explained eslewhere better than I can here.


--------------------
"A nation's hope of lasting peace cannot be firmly based upon any race in armaments but rather upon just relations and honest understanding with all other nations...

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed... The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people..."

President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953


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OfflineVALIS
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: Tantalus]
    #3839069 - 02/26/05 11:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tantalus said:
For all this you're forgetting one thing that completely throws your plan out the window. Mycelium senesce.




How many iterations of this hypothetical tek that I'm proposing do you imagine would have to take place before mycelium decline actualy proved to be a real issue? I'm guessing more than 5, possibly more than 10... at least.

Remember that every iteration, half the old mycelium is being replaced w/ brand new, rich and fresh substrate material. Which would naturally replace old myc with new myc. After about 4 iterations or so, the original older myc would no longer even exist... it would have eventualy gotten circulated out.

Also, I'm thinking the extra injection of energetic, young, nubile mycelium via the liquid culture inoculation every iteration would help prevent senescense from becoming a real issue.

As an extra defense, if senescence truly did prove to be problematic, simply rotating between two different isolates every couple iterations could possibly be a reasonable work around.

I will do some further research though regarding this. Does anyone here at the shroomery have a definitive or approximate idea of just how long mycelium flourish under proper/controlled circumstances, before finally succumbing to age? I imagine this varies between species. I know that some fungus can live to an incredible age.


--------------------
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OfflineTantalus
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Re: Possible to add more substrate to add more flushes? [Re: VALIS]
    #3839349 - 02/27/05 12:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The thing is mutations that will increase as the mycelium ages. You could do 5, 10 you'd be coming up with some serious mutations.

If you have the liquid culture ready, you'd be better off just innoccing some new jars and using them for gtg for maybe no more than 3 tranfers (keep track of jar gernerations) if you're spawning to bulk (a couple more transfers if you're not) and what ratios you're using.

After all, you can take a few quarts and gtg them to get a dozen or more quarts in less than a week ready to use for bulk.

No offense, but unless you have a much more sterile environment than most people here, you're asking for a contam mess all for saving a smaller amount of work than I think you're imagining.


--------------------
"A nation's hope of lasting peace cannot be firmly based upon any race in armaments but rather upon just relations and honest understanding with all other nations...

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed... The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people..."

President Dwight Eisenhower, 1953


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