Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlineheadphone
Stranger
Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 19
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
death squads in Vietnam
    #367400 - 08/05/01 11:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The Media Cover-Up of US Death Squads in the Vietnam War Continues

There have been many questions raised in the mass media concerning the
details of former Nebraska Governor and Senator Bob Kerrey's US Navy Seal
unit massacre of civilians at Thanh Phong during the US-Vietnam war.
Unfortunately, however, the US mainstream media cannot focus on the most
important and significant questions because they cut too deeply into the
myths these media perpetuate about the nature of US power--its benign or
even noble nature, its democratic values, and its concern for the weak and
powerless peoples of the world. This is not to mention the fact that such
questions would offend Bob Kerrey's senatorial colleagues, the US military,
and the vast majority of US war veterans who all (rightfully) fear disgrace.

In order to tell the truth about the still undeclared U.S.-Vietnam War, the
mass media would be forced to finally admit that, propaganda aside, all the
official excuses given for the US invasion of Vietnam were lies, that the
history of the war was essentially a history of war crimes committed by
everyone from US presidents and cabinet officials down to the pilots,
cavalry and infantry in the field. And that high amongst these war crimes
was the institution and execution of the CIA's Operation Phoenix program,
which intentionally and successfully targeted tens of thousands of civilians
throughout southern Vietnam in a dirty campaign of terror and mass
assassination. (According to the late William Colby, who ran the program for
the CIA, 20,587 Vietnamese "activists" were killed between 1967-1971. More
credible estimates put the number at over 40,000 civilians killed.)
But neither the mass media nor the US government can speak openly or
truthfully about these war crimes without a quite rational fear of
undermining the continuing use of the same types of criminal strategies and
tactics in the current US military interventions in Iraq, Colombia and
elsewhere.

For readers who are unaware of the Phoenix program (largely thanks to mass
media silence), it was conceived and organized by the US Central
Intelligence Agency as a means of decimating and thus destroying the
civilian administration and infrastructure supporting the indigenous Viet
Cong resistance to the US invasion of southern Vietnam. To accomplish this
decimation, any civilian populations in areas outside direct US control (or
direct control of its South Vietnamese puppet army) were unilaterally
considered to be residing in "Free-Fire Zones," in which any and all war
crimes were permitted by US policy. Then death squads made up of special
forces units (like the Navy Seals) were sent into villages and hamlets
throughout the countryside. Their first goal was to assassinate all civilian
administrators (such as village mayors) on the assumption that they were
supporters of the indigenous Vietnamese resistance to the US invasion
forces. But beyond this their goals included assassination of any military
age males, the families of administrators--including the elderly, women,
children and infants, and anyone else thought to support the Viet Cong, all
in order to sow terror amongst the remaining population.

The Phoenix program death squads proved to be very effective in achieving
their goals. The political and social infrastructure of South Vietnamese
resistance was destroyed wherever US death squads operated. Which is why the
US military (and allied military intelligence agencies like the CIA)
continues to encourage, organize, fund and employ death squads in other
countries around the world whenever conditions allow them to be effective in
projecting the interests of US power. Countries where US-organized, armed
and/or funded death squads have operated since the 1960s include Indonesia
(where at least 500,000 and possibly as many as 2,000,000 were killed
alone), East Timor, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, El Salvador, Guatemala,
Honduras, Colombia, Bolivia, Angola and Mozambique. This is only a partial
list, and it should be emphasized that while the total number of men, women
and children killed by these US-backed death squads will never be known, it
most certainly numbers in the millions over the last forty years.

Of course, this is not to mention the cowardly mass murders of many more
millions of civilians over this same time by US Air Force and Navy bombings
and bombardments. But that is another, equally distasteful story.

The invasion and genocidal war in Vietnam is only one of the reasons why we
feel such contempt for the US government and those who support its killing
machine. The other reasons include every country invaded or bombed, every
death squad organized and funded, and every society and economy
"destabilized" or destroyed by the US military in its quest to secure the
world for corporate plunder and profit. This is why we spit on the American
flag. As long as it represents a national government which wages dirty and
unprincipled war on poorer nations throughout the world, it displays neither
honor nor valor nor humanity. It should be no wonder that so many people
burn the American flag around the world. It ranks with the Nazi and Soviet
flags as one of the most powerful symbols of death and destruction in
history.

Jason McQuinn
Chuck Munson
Tom Wheeler

Alternative Press Review - http://www.altpr.org



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: headphone]
    #367484 - 08/06/01 02:16 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In the Vietnam conflict there was no way to know who civilians were. It's unfortunate that civilians die, but that's part of every war. I wasen't in Vietnam or in a hot combat zone, and I'm not going to judge the actions of soldiers in a hot CZ.

In 'Nam there were tens of thousands of VC soldiers that didn't wear uniforms. You call these people 'activists' and that's not true! People bearing arms on one side of a conflict are no longer civilians, uniformed or not. That's how it is. If one of those un-uniformed VC soldiers (activists) shot at me I would draw on him and fire until one of us was dead! And that was basicaly our military's policy in 'Nam, to not get you or your buddies dead if you can avoid it.

You may not like war and neither do I, but it goes on. You shoot at your enemy and he shoots at you until you or him are dead! Mistakes are made and good men on your own side are killed by friendly fire! Mistakes are made and civilians die! You kill the enemy! The enemy kills you! People die! You either win, retreat, or are wiped out! That's how battles are! That's the horror of war and no one can change it!

I think for the most part our soldiers in Vietnam got screwed over. And some people want to drag them back through the horrors of war, they want to screw them over all over again. And that's a shame.

God bless America's veterans and all those that fight and sacrifice their lives to preserve our freedom.

Edited by Rail_Gun on 08/06/01 06:15 AM.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #367559 - 08/06/01 07:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

As long as there are rules of behaviour in wartime, soldiers should be held accountable for breaking those rules.

Freedom is only freedom if it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to self determination. The Vietnam war was not about freedom. It was about American expansionism and empire building.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Beery on 08/06/01 06:32 AM.



--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Beery]
    #367561 - 08/06/01 07:43 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

As long as there are rules of behaviour in wartime, soldiers should be held accountable for breaking those rules.




I agree with that wholeheartedly. I would love to see all the VC soldiers that assinated American reporters and civilians in 'Nam and everywhere else face justice. I would like to see the VC soldiers that disembowled American prisoners face justice. I would like to see the VC's that marched American P.O.W.'s to concentration camps face justice. I would like to see the VC's that tortured and murdered American P.O.W.'s on a daily basis face justice.

Unfortunatly, all the VC war criminals will never be faced with a reckoning for their atrocities, at least not in this life.

People forget that for the most part the U.S. played by the rules in Vietnam. The U.S. military was there legitamatly at the request of the South Vietnamese goverment to stop an invasion by communist butchers. And while the U.S. was there that's what they did. The U.S. didn't run concentration camps and torture our P.O.W.'s. We were humane and except for a few isolated incidents did the right thing.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #367564 - 08/06/01 07:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"Unfortunatly, all the VC war criminals will never be faced with a reckoning for their atrocities, at least not in this life."

Unfortunatly, all the US war criminals will never be faced with a reckoning for their atrocities, at least not in this life.

"People forget that for the most part the U.S. played by the rules in Vietnam"

People forget that for the most part the U.S. decided what 'the rules' were in Vietnam.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Beery on 08/06/01 06:54 AM.



--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Beery]
    #367565 - 08/06/01 07:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

Freedom is only freedom if it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to self determination. The Vietnam war was not about freedom. It was about American expansionism and empire building.




Sometimes peoples freedom colide and are incompatable. The only way someone could be 100% free is if they are on their own island with no one else there. When people live together interests differ.

During the American Revolutionary War France aided our forefathers at their request. Vietnam was the same. The South Vietnam goverment begged the U.S. to help them maintain a democracy. And we did.

At the time of the Vietnam conflict there was a theory called the 'domino effect'. When one small country is couquored by communism the next country is the next to be conquored, and so forth. That's what the U.S. was opposing. The spread of totalitarianism. It was not about expansionism or empire building. It was about stoping dangerous communists from conquoring the world. And if it wasen't for the strong U.S. commitment to freedom and democracy the world would now be almost totaly controled by bloody communists and totalitarianist regimes.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #367572 - 08/06/01 08:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"Sometimes peoples freedom colide and are incompatable. The only way someone could be 100% free is if they are on their own island with no one else there. When people live together interests differ. "

Unfortunately, in the real world, that island would be promptly 'liberated' by the US and the islander would be 'induced' to make NIKE running shoes for $0.06 per day.

"During the American Revolutionary War France aided our forefathers at their request. Vietnam was the same. The South Vietnam goverment begged the U.S. to help them maintain a democracy. And we did.

Maintain a 'democracy'??? What democracy? It was a military dictatorship until 1967, and after that the 'democratically elected' military leader only got 30% of the vote, AND there were widespread accusations of vote fraud. This was hardly a democracy. Of course the South Vietnamese government begged the US for help. The South Vietnamese government at that time (early to mid 1960s) was a vastly corrupt dictatorship that the common people were rebelling against (and winning).

"At the time of the Vietnam conflict there was a theory called the 'domino effect'. When one small country is couquored by communism the next country is the next to be conquored, and so forth. That's what the U.S. was opposing. The spread of totalitarianism. It was not about expansionism or empire building.

'Domino effect' is a phrase which acts as a justification for empire building. The facts are clear - the Vietnamese people wanted their government out of power. The US, instead of helping the people create a more democratic state, chose to exert all its strength to keep the corrupt regime in power and to oppress the will of the Vietnamese people. The result was that the Communists, who chose to enter the war on the side of the people, got to influence how the country was run.

"It was about stoping dangerous communists from conquoring the world. And if it wasen't for the strong U.S. commitment to freedom and democracy the world would now be almost totaly controled by bloody communists and totalitarianist regimes."

The US has no true commitment to 'freedom' and 'democracy'. It has a commitment to US financial interests. How can you say the US is committed to freedom and democracy when it's quite plain to see that in almost every foreign military incursion, the US has installed or supported dictatorships, sometimes removing freely elected democratic governments to do so (for example Chile under Allende or Haiti under Jean-Bertrand Aristide).

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Beery on 08/06/01 07:56 AM.



--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineheadphone
Stranger
Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 19
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #368168 - 08/07/01 02:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

It was not about expansionism or empire building. It was
about stoping dangerous communists from conquoring the world.




Or so the propaganda goes. Actually, communism was quite popular among the Vietnamese people.

In reply to:

And if it wasen't for the strong U.S.
commitment to freedom and democracy the world would now be almost totaly controled by bloody
communists and totalitarianist regimes.




So bombing the fuck out of other countries, repressing popular struggles, dropping thousands of thousands of landmines and weirdo chemicals on the country, installing dictatorial puppet regimes to ensure U.S. economic interests, committing genocide, having the CIA subvert and crush dissidence, and than distorting the truth via the mass media to cover their asses is a sound path toward "freedom and democracy"? So we bomb people for their own good? Please demonstrate to the forum how this is true. Show me one country that is better off, more free, and more democractic since WWII after an American invasion or our so-called "humanitarian interventions."

Do you know the definition of "newspeak"?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: headphone]
    #368187 - 08/07/01 03:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The Soviets provided the North Vietnamese with their arms. The Soviets were behind the Viet Cong invasion of South Vietnam. It has since been learned since the fall of the Soviet Union that the Soviets actualy had Soviet military personal shooting surface to air missles at American airmen. This was really a conflict between the Soviet Union and the U.S. using the Viet Cong and the South Vietnamese as pawns. It wasen't about the Vietnamese people.

All the talk about 'American imperialism' is a load of bunk. The Soviets were the real imperialists. And the Americans were trying hard and giving their lives to stop the spread of communism. Funny how for all the talk of 'American imperialism' that none of these countries that America got involved with ever bacame American Territories.

Beery, how old are you? Were you even alive during the Vietnam Conflict? I know how it was. I have relatives that served in Vietnam and almost died there. There really was a 'red scare'. And we were afraid of the domino effect and how pretty soon all the south east asian countries would be conquored by communism. We had to do somthing to stop the Soviets. No offence but you don't know what you're talking about.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #368639 - 08/08/01 10:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"The Soviets provided the North Vietnamese with their arms. The Soviets were behind the Viet Cong invasion of South Vietnam. It has since been learned since the fall of the Soviet Union that the Soviets actualy had Soviet military personal shooting surface to air missles at American airmen. This was really a conflict between the Soviet Union and the U.S. using the Viet Cong and the South Vietnamese as pawns. It wasen't about the Vietnamese people."

The US was as much to blame as the Soviets. Both countries had their propaganda machines in place in Vietnam before the fighting began. You can't accuse the Soviets as if they were somehow there before the US got involved. The question should not be 'what did the Soviets want'. The important question was 'what did the Vietnamese people want'. The fact is, the Vietnamese people wanted a people's government to replace the French imperialist and American-backed governments that were in power. The Soviet/Chinese had an easier time convincing the people of Vietnam because America had allied itself with the French.

"All the talk about 'American imperialism' is a load of bunk. The Soviets were the real imperialists. And the Americans were trying hard and giving their lives to stop the spread of communism."

Oh yeah, right. Tell me, why do Americans have military bases all over the world? Seems slightly imperialist to me. Why does America bomb Serbia and Iraq contrary to the rule of international law? America at the dawn of the 21st century is the last big imperialist power and the greatest threat to democracy in the world. If America is not imperialist it should defend its own borders, not those of other countries. America treats the other countries of the world as if they are sattelite states. That's imperialism.

"Funny how for all the talk of 'American imperialism' that none of these countries that America got involved with ever bacame American Territories. "

Tell that to Hawaii, tell it to Mexico (Texas was a part of Mexico), tell it to the American Indian inhabitants of almost any state you care to mention. The fact is, America now prefers to install puppet dictatorships, just like the Russians did. Vietnam never became a Russian (or Chinese) territory, nor did North Korea. Annexing territory is a very outdated form of imperialism - it's too costly - look what happened when the Russians invaded Afghanistan. The only way to successfully annex a territory without a popular rebellion is to massacre the people, as the US did in Sioux territory and in many other areas. Modern Imperialism tends to run along the same lines as British Egypt before WW2. Far easier and more effective to let the people think they have home rule. Don't get me wrong, the Russians (and to a lesser extent the Chinese) are guilty of this too. All imperialism should stop. Countries should be free to determine their fate democratically.

"Beery, how old are you? Were you even alive during the Vietnam Conflict? I know how it was. I have relatives that served in Vietnam and almost died there. There really was a 'red scare'. And we were afraid of the domino effect and how pretty soon all the south east asian countries would be conquored by communism. We had to do somthing to stop the Soviets. No offence but you don't know what you're talking about."

Yes, I was alive then (I'm 39, how old are you?). My great grandfather, my grandfather and my great uncle fought in WW1, one of my uncles fought at El Alamein in WW2, and another uncle was killed peacekeeping with the UN forces in Cyprus in the 1950s. My father was in British Military Intelligence, stationed in Berlin in the 1950s. My family knows the costs of imperialism. The fact is, you were taught to fear the domino effect. But the fear did not match the reality. The Soviets were a major force for evil, it's true, but the US has done a great deal of evil deeds too in the last 40 years. Most of today's US-led incursions into foreign territory tend to be anti-democratic.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Beery on 08/08/01 09:59 AM.



--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Beery]
    #368749 - 08/08/01 02:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

Tell that to Hawaii, tell it to Mexico (Texas was a part of Mexico), tell it to the American Indian inhabitants of almost any state you care to mention.




There's a lot more to things than that. Did you ever hear of Sam Houston? He was partly responsible for founding the Republic of Texas. Texas was a soverign country before it was incorporated into the mainland United States. One of my ancestors, General James Blair Steedman, fought with Sam Houston helping to found Texas. You don't really believe that the US shouldn't have won the west, can you? We brought civilazation to a rugged country inhabited by uncivalized heathens. The US has civalized this country. And assisted in helping to civalize other countries. That's a good thing.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #368932 - 08/08/01 08:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm. Now I can't tell if you're being serious or if you're being ironic. If it's the latter, I commend you on your subtlety. If the former, I think you need to look a bit deeper into American history (and perhaps approach it from a more objective standpoint).

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhyl
old hand
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 597
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #369154 - 08/09/01 05:20 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

We brought civilazation to a rugged country inhabited by uncivalized heathens. The US has civalized this country. And assisted in helping to civalize other countries. That's a good thing.


Why?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/04/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #369877 - 08/10/01 06:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

You don't really believe that the US shouldn't have won the west, can you? We brought civilazation to a rugged country inhabited by uncivalized heathens. The US has civalized this country. And assisted in helping to civalize other countries. That's a good thing.




I dare you, I double-dare you, to read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. If your John Wayne worldview is still intact, then you have more problems than just a warped sense of history.


http://www.abolishthebank.org


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #369929 - 08/10/01 09:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"Texas was a soverign country before it was incorporated into the mainland United States. One of my ancestors, General James Blair Steedman, fought with Sam Houston helping to found Texas. You don't really believe that the US shouldn't have won the west, can you? We brought civilazation to a rugged country inhabited by uncivalized heathens. The US has civalized this country. And assisted in helping to civalize other countries."

Let's hope that in their adoption of US civilization, other English speaking countries don't relax their appreciation for grammar and spelling in order to accommodate our apparent lack thereof ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Beery on 08/10/01 08:30 PM.



--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #370041 - 08/11/01 04:14 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

I dare you, I double-dare you, to read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. If your John Wayne worldview is still intact, then you have more problems than just a warped sense of history.




That book is published by 'Common Courage Press' and is widely distributed by Loompanics Enterprises Limited. Loompanics promotes itself as 'the lunatic fringe of the libertarian movement'. I don't really think that book would be the most credible source of reliable information. They probably would make a few good points about the Trail of tears and the Phillipine invasion in the late 1800's though.




--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: headphone]
    #370090 - 08/11/01 07:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I also think that the origional article posted by headphone is somewhat lacking in credibility since it was published by Alternative Press Review. It's an alternative media all right. An alternative to the truth.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #370115 - 08/11/01 09:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"That book is published by 'Common Courage Press' and is widely distributed by Loompanics Enterprises Limited. Loompanics promotes itself as 'the lunatic fringe of the libertarian movement'."

Perhaps, but to assume that a 'lunatic fringe' publisher publishes only 'lunatic fringe' books is like assuming that commercially driven publishers (i.e. all of them) only sell books on capitalism. It just isn't so.

"I don't really think that book would be the most credible source of reliable information."

I would be careful in making such an assumption. Time Magazine is regarded as about as 'middle of the road' as you can get, but it often mis-states facts. To judge the reliability of a book by its publisher's stated political leanings is folly.

"I also think that the origional article posted by headphone is somewhat lacking in credibility since it was published by Alternative Press Review. It's an alternative media all right. An alternative to the truth."

Or an alternative to the 'conventional wisdom', which is often wrong. I notice again that you rely on politics to determine credibility. A very dangerous and unwise method. Surely a book (or an article) should be measured against fact. Just as a book should not be judged by its cover, we should not judge a book based on our appraisal of its publisher.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Beery]
    #370117 - 08/11/01 09:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

To further illustrate my point, I'll include this little snippet from 'Anarchy for Anybody' (http://www.radio4all.org/anarchy/index.html):

Most people don't really question what they get from the media; it's taken to be a good source of reliable, and above all, objective information. And that really demonstrates the damage that's been done to people's minds. We seem to be living in an age where thought itself is not only discouraged, but actively opposed. Be afraid; that's okay, because fear paralyzes -- but don't think, because that'll just get you in trouble.

What really got me thinking about our "government by hysteria" is the use of sound bites and slogans as ways of stopping thought. Slogans really are the death of thought, because the issues that plague our society (because they fail to get addressed) simply can't be summed up in two words. Complex problems can only be solved through dialogue, which is a long, arduous process of conversational give and take.

Instead, what we have is a polarized society, and a deeply ideological one, held together by fear. This is characterized by the two-word slogans -- perhaps the folks who come up with these found that a two-word slogan is small enough that the village idiot (e.g., what they think most of us are) can comprehend it, remember it, repeat it as necessary.

What makes these so nasty is the way that they stop thought and reflection in their tracks. So long as Americans can be prevented (or, more aptly, prevent themselves and each other) from discussing and thinking, the status quo can continue to be preserved.

These words are ultimately , designed to short-circuit thought, inquiry, self-expression, dialogue -- all the things that make democracy work, and all of which are sadly lacking in our totalitarian, consumerist world. Several slogans seem particularly evident, and working on different levels.

ZERO TOLERANCE
At the administrative level, you have zero tolerance (ZT). This has become the slogan of the hour as administrators, whether in schools or the workplace, seek to establish their authority in a dictatorial manner -- ZT becomes the justification for anything the administrator does. It becomes chanted, like a mantra -- "we have a zero tolerance policy in effect, here" -- as if this has any meaning. America itself seems to have a ZT policy toward freethinkers.
What ZT does is it frees up administration to do whatever the hell they want, and offers blanket protection for them. ZT is a big stone wall that you can't surmount, it's a mental dead end, which makes you realize why adminstrators like it so much -- it makes their job easier, because it allows them to act without thought or reflection, relying instead on fear and knee-jerk ideology. It's like a magic bullet, this ZT, which is fitting, since I believe the Army first coined the term!

CONVENTIONAL WISDOM
This is taken to be common knowledge, the province of the inclusive "us" versus the subversive "them" -- CW is used by pundits and politicos to characterize "right-think" (invoking Orwell, from 1984). Ideas that are considered acceptable to the status quo. This one isn't typically used by everyday people, because it's a bit wonkish, but it does get used in the Massive Media, so I include it here.
It still serves the same purpose -- shoehorning complex thoughts into extraordinarily narrow confines. CW is as meaningless as the other slogans, but it creates the illusion that something thoughtful and meaningful has been said.

CONSPIRACY THEORY
On a political level, there's the mighty conspiracy theory (CT). This has come to be used to describe anybody and anything that doesn't gel with the corporate press and/or government's view of things. It becomes a handy pigeonhole for unpleasant thoughts, a way of dismissing them without having to reflect on them. A CT is intrinsically without merit, and pins suspicion and doubt on the speaker of it. CT creates the illusion that the person who says that is calm, ordered, reasonable, sensible -- and the person(s) they accuse of CT are, of course, hysterical, insane, paranoid, etc.
What's so interesting about CT is that the uninformed are able to feel informed by invoking it -- and what's useful about CT is that anything can be considered CT. If you ask too many questions about something, then people will say you're paranoid, or that you believe in CT.

End of discussion, end of story. Thought successfully derailed. That's not saying there aren't true CTs out there; there are plenty, and you typically know them when you see them, because they follow a very definite pattern (all-powerful, hidden group of bad guys out to get you, untouchable, they are behind everything). True CTs are disempowering and paralyze their proponents with fear (or impel them to reckless, pointless acts of violence).

However, use of CT has broadened to encompass a much larger range of thoughts and ideas -- anything that isn't from an official source, anything that asks questions, can be branded a CT. The user of CT can return to regularly schedule programming without pesky thought and reflection.

POLITICALLY CORRECT (PC)
Which brings me to the granddaddy, or should I say, "grandperson" of thought-derailers, the mighty PC. This one was drafted and coined by right-wing think tankers to characterize the so-called "tenured radicals" of academe, and to give everyday people another magic bullet in their arsenal of thoughtlessness to sling at ideas they didn't like. It's been explored so much that I needn't elaborate much on it, here.
PC applies to any left-leaning idea that, again, doesn't gel with the agendas of the dominant elites in our society. It provides a way to dismiss the ideas out of hand, without discussion, a way of saying nothing while seeming to say something. It pads the ego of speaker of it while really advertising their ignorance.

"Oh, you're just being PC..." what the hell does that mean, anyway? It means nothing. That's the dirty reality of it all, but it does serve to stop conversation in its tracks.

THE WAR ON THOUGHT
What I think these slogans (and probably others) do is wage war on thought and discourse, on reflection, on understanding, and, ultimately, on democracy. They create an atmosphere where the ignorant and uninformed can dismiss "wrongthink" (a brilliant term Orwell coined in 1984) and continue to live ignorant, uninformed lives. Best of all, these slogans can be used again and again, because there really is no answer to them, because they pin blame and suspicion on others -- so anything you say has already been used against you in the court of popular opinion.
I believe these slogans are used because, in a society like ours, you have to keep people from talking to one another, because if people begin asking questions, there's no end to trouble. So, instead, keep people quiet and fearful and alone, and pin fear and suspicion on people who dare to make inquiries.

This isn't how a free society operates; but we don't have a free society, although this kind of politically correct, conspiracy theory drivel goes against the conventional wisdom, of course, and I know you have zero tolerance for that.

--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
We suggest that you resist all advertisements,
and be wary of any corporation's promotions.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Duck Hunt, Enemy Enforcer

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 13,087
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 4 hours, 46 minutes
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Beery]
    #370464 - 08/12/01 01:35 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Beery, you're quite right. You shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. Even a history book. BTW, it really is the winner that rights the history book. The history boo you're promoting I think writes history from the losers perspective. Of course the losers are going to be ticked off and infuriated, and maybe justifyably so. But I'm decended from the winners and I prefer the point of view of my heritage and culture. That's just how I am.



--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* How to train death squads and quash revolutions from San Salvador to Iraq Visionary Tools 548 2 06/24/08 09:05 PM
by ScavengerType
* Iraq journalist deaths match Vietnam War killed Psilocybeingzz 721 2 06/24/06 10:12 PM
by Basilides
* Death squads in Iraq?
( 1 2 all )
Aldous 1,722 23 01/16/05 11:57 AM
by d33p
* Iraq death squads using drills.. Alex213 351 1 02/26/06 01:35 PM
by bukkake
* Death squads prowl nation paralysed by fear Alex213 244 0 03/20/06 06:18 AM
by Alex213
* Gippers death squads Xlea321 992 16 06/16/04 09:45 PM
by afoaf
* do i need a gas mask......false gods...death squads kaiowas 618 9 07/27/04 10:00 PM
by BleaK
* Historical precedent of lying to get war.
( 1 2 3 all )
Visionary Tools 2,414 42 08/06/08 11:56 PM
by ScavengerType

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,484 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.185 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 16 queries.