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InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/03/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #370541 - 08/12/01 03:20 AM (22 years, 10 months ago)

Now let me get this straight railgun...(pardon me if I start to ramble - just got back from a night at the pubs)

In a recent post you quote the Bible in reference to the teaching of Jesus Christ, essentially praising a man who was hunted down and killed by the authorities of his time for his radical, unorthodox, and subversive teachings. And then in this thread you essentially spit upon the experience and history of those (native americans, blacks, women, unconventional religious groups, labor activists, etc. as recorded in Zinn's book) who underwent similar persecution, violence, oppression, etc. [albeit they were not proclaiming to be some sort of savior like Jesus - but that is irrelevent; what is relevent is both groups were a threat to the status quo and were taken down by force] because of they were perceived to be a threat to the established order; you consider their experiences less valid and unworthy of consideration as compared to "the winners" of American history.

For someone who loosely quotes the Bible even during discussions about income tax returns of all things, surely you'd be knowledgable about the history of Christianity. Jesus during his time was popular among the people, but not so popular among the powerful religious and governmental authorities. He was promptly executed, and his life and death was hardly noted (if at all) in the historical records of "the winners" (the Jewish and Roman orders).
Christianity was frowned upon in the early days, and the teachings and history of Jesus were recorded and preserved by a handful of faithful followers despite much repression. Jesus and his posthumous followers were "the losers" in their time.

If it wasnt for the "losers" who preserved the history and teachings of Jesus Christ, the modern world would not have ever heard of such man. Nor would you be able to quote him in your income-tax debates.

Limiting your world knowledge to just the perspective of those who conquered the most and who held the most power and opulence is quite sad; such a pity because you seem like a relatively intelligent human being. Why not expand your horizons and try to grasp the truth of what really happened in the past? Why just accept one version of the story?

Maybe because the truth is difficult to swallow. Terror campaigns during the Vietnam War (Operation Phoenix is widely documented; why not research it before you dismiss it?) are not pleasant at all.

In reply to:

BTW, it really is the winner that rights the history book.




Good observation. This is the exact point that Zinn makes in his book.

Who cares if Loomponicios, or whatever, distributes A People's History? Maybe they know it is a popular book. Are they the sole distributers of the book? Of course not - check out all of your favorite corporate outlets: Amazon. com, Barnes & Noble, etc.

The sources of Zinn's book are well-documented. It's all there. Check the primary sources if you have questions.


http://www.abolishthebank.org

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InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/03/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #370542 - 08/12/01 03:27 AM (22 years, 10 months ago)

Also imporant to note - Operation Phoenix is just the tip of the iceberg my friend.


http://www.abolishthebank.org

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InvisibleBeery
newbie

Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 49
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
Re: death squads in Vietnam [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #370564 - 08/12/01 06:59 AM (22 years, 10 months ago)

"I prefer the point of view of my heritage and culture. That's just how I am."

Until recently I used to feel much the same way. In the end I found out that it was just jingoism. It's important to see history as it is, not how we would like it to be. While imperialism did have some value (it built railway systems and in some cases ended religious violence and state repression in some aboriginal cultures), it also perpetrated much harm in 'bringing civilization to the heathen', which often meant killing as many of them as humanly possible. This was just as true for US imperialism as it was in the European empires. Not many people realise that the concentration camp was not a Nazi invention, nor was it created by the British in the Boer War (as has often been said). It was actually pioneered during the Indian Wars by the US government.

If we ignore history, we're doomed to repeat it. That well-worn phrase is especially true when historians don't even teach about the less palatable parts of our history. We see the truth of it in today's news stories.

Howard Zinn has written a balanced history of the US (he is perhaps the first to do so). Because of that, he is called a 'radical wacko' and his book is viewed in some circles as left wing propaganda. That says a lot about the state of American political thought and its regard for truth.

I hope you will pick up his book and try to read it. I think it will give you a different perspective on history and perhaps help you to see current events from a more objective standpoint.

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