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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509283 -

You're assuming natural rights. Biiiiig assumption.

that's right i am. if you reject the notion of rights, you may as well quit attacking the conservative christian political agenda. if people haven't got any rights, they can't be violating them either.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3509303 -

what you have listed are good reasons to help people. that isn't anywhere near good reasons to make doing so a compulsory requirement and make failing to do so punishable by law.

if your concerns are actually a problem, then people will see this and will voluntarily act to remedy the situation.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3509333 -

Suppose two people require life saving surgery or medicine. One person happens to be wealthy and the other person happens to be poor. In that situation the wealthy person will be able to afford their health care since their is no universal health care system. The wealthy person will have a greater claim to life.

medicine is not free. medicine costs money. someone has to go through a lot of work to produce it. they need to get paid. both the wealthy person and the poor person have the same right to life. the wealthy person is able to pay for the cost of medicine, the poor person is not.

having a right to live doesn't mean that you have a right to force others to provide you with the things you require to do so.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509422 -

Quote:
having a right to live doesn't mean that you have a right to force others to provide you with the things you require to do so.


That is one characteristic of Libertarianism with which I disagree. I don't believe elective surgery or medicine is a basic human right however I do feel surgery necessary for survival is. Simply because a person is blessed (or cursed as your belief may lead you) with wealth I don't believe they have any greater right to surgery required for survival.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3509427 -

The self-styled guardians of good government are not bothered when churches denounce Republican policies as cruel and un-Christian or when liberation theologians lead crusades for nuclear disarmament.

In all of these cases that I know of, the groups are small. Single churches, community groups, ect.

Yet as soon as the conservative faithful get involved in politics, we hear all this nonsense about violating election laws and exceeding the bounds of nonprofit status - not to mention threats to the separation of church and state.

In this case we're talking about a large organization, the Christian Coalition, which not only campaigns as one organization but also has members helping to run the candidate's campaign. How is that not blurring the lines between church and state?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3509435 -

so you believe that if a person requires a medical procedure or medicine, they have a right to force someone else to provide them with it?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509457 -

Yes. I don't believe a single person's greed or apathy should cost another person their life.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509459 -

Do you believe that a society has no responsibility to those residing in it?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3509486 -

Yes

how much medical attention should be provided?

with enough investment, we could probably come up with all kinds of life-lengthening, though expensive, procedures. should we all be forced to subsidize an unlimited amount of medical care?

I don't believe a single person's greed or apathy should cost another person their life.

who are you to decide such things? what gives you, or anyone else, the right to decide that some people should be forced to do certain things they'd rather not, "for the betterment of society"?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509495 -

Do you believe that a society has no responsibility to those residing in it?

what is a society?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509509 -

For these purposes, I will define it as the entire group under one government's rule.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509595 -

and when you say that society has a responsibility, does that really mean that the people in society have that responsibility?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509627 -

to an extent. This is a case where the whole is not equal to the sum of the individual parts.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509646 -

how do you figure?

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509669 -

But one example: One person doesn't have to protect himself from himself. A group of people does.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509724 -

when you say that a group has to protect itself from itself, what you are really saying is that people within the group have to protect themselves from eachother.

a group has no consciousness or will. a group has no rights or responsibilities. individuals, on the other hand are sentient beings. when you say that a society owes things to people in that society, what you mean is that people living in a group owe things to other people within that group.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509762 -

Quote:
a group has no consciousness or will.


Not from the perspective of a "free" individual, it doesn't. People have never existed outside of groups, and yet groups act and make decisions. A human has conflicting voices in his head, yet will settle on one and act. And yet his brain isn't doing the acting- his other muscles are. Would you simply ignore your hand if it became paralyzed and thus useless?

Outside of your own perceived consciousness, you cannot tell if a group has a will or consciousness. If groups were a collection of their parts, mobs would be far more intelligent and act accordingly.

Quote:
when you say that a society owes things to people in that society, what you mean is that people living in a group owe things to other people within that group.


I do not. By virtue of existing in a group, you must bear the burden as well as the benefits. The more benefits, the more burden.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3509849 -

"People have never existed outside of groups"
Presumably, if you follow the Bible there was originally only one person. If you prefer evolution, there probably was only one original person (unless the first humans came in a litter). Other than that, people have still existed outside of groups. Though admittedly, most have not. Do you know the terms "hermit" and "loner."

"yet groups act and make decisions"
Persons within groups act and make decisions. Groups cannot exist without individuals. Group "actions" are in fact cooperative actions of individuals. Group decisions are in fact decisions of individuals in the group. When I say "we decided" I am in fact saying that the decisions of myself and others who I include in the designation "we" are in accord or that I have agreed on some level to accept the decisions of others and go along with them.

"A human has conflicting voices in his head, yet will settle on one and act. And yet his brain isn't doing the acting- his other muscles are. Would you simply ignore your hand if it became paralyzed and thus useless? "
This is a false analogy.

"If groups were a collection of their parts, mobs would be far more intelligent and act accordingly."
I do not see how your conclusion follows from your premise.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Autonomous]
    #3509894 -

Quote:
Presumably, if you follow the Bible there was originally only one person. If you prefer evolution, there probably was only one original person (unless the first humans came in a litter). Other than that, people have still existed outside of groups. Though admittedly, most have not. Do you know the terms "hermit" and "loner."



They are negligent because they are not people in groups. People have not existed outside of groups, individual humans have. However, culturally and genetically they have not.

Quote:
This is a false analogy.


Do you have any evidence to refute my analogy? Coupled with group actions, this is a valid analogy even if it does not sit well with you.

Quote:
I do not see how your conclusion follows from your premise.


The individuals in a mob get caught up in a behavioural mob-mentality. This would not occur if not for the mob - the individual would not act like a mob.

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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3509895 -

a group has no consciousness or will. a group has no rights or responsibilities.

This may be a little off topic...but if this is completely true, how do you explain things such as mass hysteria and "mob mentality"?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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