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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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The Founding Fathers and Christianity
    #2425058 - 03/12/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is in relation to a discussion that silversoul7 and I were having in the "handguns V rifles" thread. I wanted to continue it, but I think that that thread is quite important and I'd like to start another one addressing that issue. I found numerous sources that give quotations of the founding fathers praising god/christianity and associatting him with the government and governmental matters. I'd like to say that I am not christian at all, just interested in the true facts behind this story is all.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html
Quote:


"The God who gave us life gave us liberty... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction... That these liberties are the gift of God? The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson and More Quotes by Jefferson

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." -John Quincy Adams

"We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all our heart." -James Madison

"You can't have national morality apart from religious principle." -George Washington and More Quotes by Washington

"The philosophy of the schoolroom in one generation will be the philosophy of the government of the next." -Abraham Lincoln

"Our country was founded on the Gosple of Jesus Christ." -Patrick Henry

"The longer I live the more convinced I become that God governs in the affairs of men. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance." -Benjamin Franklin

"While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." -Samuel Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion." -John Adams





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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2425074 - 03/12/04 08:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Notice there is only one reference to Jesus in there. Also note that Christians aren't the only people who believe in God. I hope that clears a few things up.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #2425103 - 03/12/04 08:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Notice there is only one reference to Jesus in there. Also note that Christians aren't the only people who believe in God. I hope that clears a few things up.





I count two, and you also said that they don't believe in the infallibility of the bible, a document that is mentioned.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2425107 - 03/12/04 08:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was generalizing. Of course some of the founding fathers were Christian, but not as many as religious conservatives would have you believe. Thomas Jefferson, during his presidency, actually wrote a book in which he denied the divinity of Christ.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #2425113 - 03/12/04 08:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

you were the one that posted saying that "the founding fathers were not christian", your words, not mine. This is the third or fourth time in two days that you've said what you didn't mean, then changed it on me. sorry if I seem to jump around, but I can only argue against what you say, not what you mean. If you'd have said "Some of the founding fathers were not christian" that would be oen thing, but saying that "the founding fathers were NOT Christian", then saying that "some of the founding fathers were Christian" seem to be two very distinctly different opinions.


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Opinions are like assholes; everyone needs one or else they'd explode


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2425124 - 03/12/04 08:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was aware that the statement was not entirely accurate. As I said, I was generalizing.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #2425128 - 03/12/04 08:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I was aware that the statement was not entirely accurate. As I said, I was generalizing.



In the future if you could post statements that were accurate, it would save me alot of trouble. Thx.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2425137 - 03/12/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What do you want, a cookie? I was trying to make a point in reply to your statement about the founding fathers being Christian. The reason I said "The founding fathers were not Christian" was because that was the title of the web page I was linking to. Pretty much any statement by someone saying "The founding fathers were such and such" or "The founding fathers believed in such and such" is a broad generalization that is most certainly inaccurate, since "founding fathers" was quite a diverse group of people, probably more diverse(opinion-wise) than today's political spectrum in America.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: silversoul7]
    #2427209 - 03/13/04 01:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

there are plenty of places to read on this but here is one with some good quick snippits.



http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id9.html


The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995

"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)


Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: The Founding Fathers and Christianity [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2434593 - 03/15/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

many of the founding fathers were deists, not christians:

The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

(www.dictionary.com)


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