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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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What About the Religious Left?
    #3506923 - 12/16/04 01:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.forerunner.com/ccbc/X0042_What_About_the_Relig.html


By Robert V. Pambianco

What's most striking about the Federal Election Commission's legal attack against the Christian Coalition is the rank hypocrisy of liberals who complain about the political activities of the religious right. What about the religious left?

No one seems to mind when liberal religious groups engage in political activities. It's OK when left-wing church activists lobby for socialized medicine, affirmative action or welfare. The self-styled guardians of good government are not bothered when churches denounce Republican policies as cruel and un-Christian or when liberation theologians lead crusades for nuclear disarmament. Yet as soon as the conservative faithful get involved in politics, we hear all this nonsense about violating election laws and exceeding the bounds of nonprofit status - not to mention threats to the separation of church and state.

Indeed, there are liberal religious organizations that perform the same sorts of activities - albeit on a smaller scale - that got the Christian Coalition in hot water. The Interfaith Alliance is one such group. Created as an alternative to the "divisiveness and intolerance of the extreme religious right," TIA is made up mostly of representatives of the so-called mainline Protestant churches.

The alliance's agenda is far removed from that of conservative Christian groups, yet its methods are quite similar. In July it announced a "Road to Renewal" aimed at bringing "TIA's national religious leaders all across America to local TIA chapters and the national party conventions to help empower mainstream people of faith. TIA's 109 chapters will distribute millions of voter guides." Distributing voter guides is exactly what the Christian Coalition does - and what has the CC's liberal critics so excited.

Earlier this year, the Oregon Interfaith Alliance distributed its "mainstream" voter guides to Oregonians prior to a special U.S. Senate election. Like the Christian Coalition's guides, they were supposed to provide Oregon voters with the candidates' "positions on important issues" - including, in the alliance's case, the minimum wage, Medicare, Medicaid, the environment and housing discrimination.

Which candidate do you think ranked better? Hint: It wasn't the Republican. Democratic Rep. Ron Wyden narrowly edged out his GOP opponent. Did the Interfaith Alliance's guides play some role in Mr. Wyden's victory? Probably. But where is the outcry from those who groan about religious extremism?

Two reasons explain the liberals' hypocritical attack on the Christian Coalition. First, these self-proclaimed defenders of tolerance are incapable of tolerating views at odds with their own orthodoxy. The same folks who condemn the "extremism" of the "radical religious right" seek to use the police powers of the state to silence those with whom they disagree.

Second, contemporary liberalism has accepted the counterculture's hostility toward religion. Liberal elites tolerate religion only so long as it's used as a vehicle to advance a "progressive" secular agenda. Start talking about God and morality, and they get nervous.

The FEC should either drop its suit against the Christian Coalition or be prepared to take action against the left-leaning religious groups that have been politicking for years. Unless, of course, the FEC's members are comfortable with this hypocrisy.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3506998 - 12/16/04 01:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've never heard anyone say that religious groups shouldn't be allowed to lobby for various things. The general opposition against the religious right is that they try to impose certain moral values that are a restriction of freedoms, like censorship and legislation against gay marriage.

This article seems to be one big strawman to me.


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Anonymous

Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Phluck]
    #3507117 - 12/16/04 01:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The general opposition against the religious right is that they try to impose certain moral values that are a restriction of freedoms...

"left-wing church activists lobby for socialized medicine, affirmative action or welfare"

isn't forcing people to provide medical care or living expenses legislating a moral value and restricting their freedom?


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3507673 - 12/16/04 08:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Do you believe that wealth gives a person a greater claim to life.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

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Anonymous

Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: cb9fl]
    #3507828 - 12/16/04 10:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

no.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3507835 - 12/16/04 10:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

"left-wing church activists lobby for socialized medicine, affirmative action or welfare"

If they are arguing for those things with the justification, "God says its the right thing to do", then yes, it would be a problem. If they can justify it through logic, then i'm open ears. The problem is the religious right skips past the whole logic phase, and instead enjoys quipping, "In the bible Jesus said...."


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Anonymous

Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: looner2]
    #3507900 - 12/16/04 10:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If they can justify it through logic...

they can't. it would be just as well if they said it was the will of god.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3507905 - 12/16/04 10:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Agree, but thats another issue. At least their argument doesn't come from the bible.


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Anonymous

Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: looner2]
    #3507910 - 12/16/04 10:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

makes no difference where it comes from if it doesn't come from reason.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #3507923 - 12/16/04 10:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The problem isn't religious - it's a question of what is legal political behavior for non-profits with special tax status. Distributing partisan voter guides isn't.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3507981 - 12/16/04 11:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How do you see no logical argument behind socialized medicine, affirmative action or welfare? You have to abandon your own prejudices and premises before trying out another argument.

The right and left work on different premises.


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Anonymous

Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: vampirism]
    #3508055 - 12/16/04 11:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How do you see no logical argument behind socialized medicine, affirmative action or welfare?

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to provide other people with medical care?

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to pay for other people's living expenses?

what is the logical argument behind rewarding employers for treating people differently on the basis of the color of their skin?


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508116 - 12/16/04 11:51 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You're assuming natural rights. Biiiiig assumption.


Besides which, in large cities, as DoctorJ pointed out before, lack of welfare simply means you are getting robbed at gunpoint. I dont know what's better- paying for jails to throw people into, or preventing them from having a need to steal. The former costs more, the latter doesn't prevent all theft- but neither does the former.


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OfflineTao
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508125 - 12/16/04 11:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to provide other people with medical care?

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to pay for other people's living expenses?





i'd start with reading TH Green. or Giddens' Third Way. by the way, have you ever read a book from the other side of the spectrum? all i hear you comment on are friedman, hayek and nozick.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508171 - 12/16/04 12:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to provide other people with medical care?

Because otherwise you have diseased people roaming the streets spreading epidemics?

what is the logical argument behind forcing some people to pay for other people's living expenses?

Because leaving large numbers of people to live with extreme poverty and disease has a negative effect on society?


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3508211 - 12/16/04 12:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

well said :thumbup:


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OfflineTao
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508253 - 12/16/04 12:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

although i guess Giddens doesnt deal with the justification behind it as much as the practicality of it, abandoning socialist methods but not its values.

and how could i forget John Rawls' Theory of Justice

and more justification comes from Jeremey Bentham's Utilitarianism and JS Mill--though he didnt defend social welfare till towards the end of his life when he realized its unfortunate necessity in a capitalist system.


but the most important point is that rights are man-made, the are nothing more but strong desires. to some (who often tend to be well off) this is just individual freedom. to others, it is to be looked after when sick and social mobility.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508604 - 12/16/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

cb9fl
Quote:

Do you believe that wealth gives a person a greater claim to life.




mushmaster
Quote:

no




Then what do you feel is more equitable. Suppose two people require life saving surgery or medicine. One person happens to be wealthy and the other person happens to be poor. In that situation the wealthy person will be able to afford their health care since their is no universal health care system. The wealthy person will have a greater claim to life.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: ]
    #3508793 - 12/16/04 03:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's perfectly fair to say that you don't think that they work and go over the reasons for it, but if you can't even understand the logic behind the ideas, you have no place debating against them.

Whether or not it works, if you don't understand that socialized medicine is created to provide a higher standard of health for the general population, or that affirmative action was created to combat racism, you can't possibly have enough understanding of the issue to argue against them.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: What About the Religious Left? [Re: Phluck]
    #3508977 - 12/16/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Afirmative Action is by definition racism.

rac?ism 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


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