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 vampirism
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 Tolerance and Intolerance 
#3468534 - 12/09/04 12:27 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Intolerance of intolerance means tolerating only what you like.
If you're going to tolerate things, make sure to tolerate intolerance.
thoughts?
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SkorpivoMusterion
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 Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: vampirism]
#3468694 - 12/09/04 01:30 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, true acceptance is totality, and totality gives rise to true peace.
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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 repemon
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yep
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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.
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vampirism
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drat, that simple huh?
I was hoping someone would bring up a counter that I could argue against, like "well then toleration is completely useless because you tolerate everything!!"
"well so?"
"What are you tolerating for in the first place? What purpose does it serve!!!"
and so on..
oh well
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trendal
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: vampirism]
#3470468 - 12/09/04 12:27 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you're going to tolerate things, make sure to tolerate intolerance.
Wise words 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Gomp
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: trendal]
#3470487 - 12/09/04 12:32 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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well then toleration is completely useless because you tolerate everything!!?
well so?
What are you tolerating for in the first place? What purpose does it serve!!?
tolerate intoleranse, is just like aproving your way, but closing the other way? :P if you are intolerant, you would be tolerant?
please explain?  
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Disclaimer!?
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repemon
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Gomp]
#3470720 - 12/09/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Then one must assume that one can know when one is tolerating everything?
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- When the time stops, evil ones will be pointed out for all to see.
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Alan Stone
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: vampirism]
#3471207 - 12/09/04 02:53 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I disagree.
A: One is tolerant
B: One tolerates intolerance
B doesn't logically follow A, just like:
C: One is "good"
D: One tolerates "evil"
D doesn't logically follow C.
Why should intolerance be tolerated ? Doesn't tolerance become meaningless if you do nothing about the intolerance in the world? What good is being the one tolerant alien when your entire species is obliterating another species' planet?
Call me an idealist, but I'd say "Everything should be tolerated BUT intolerance", because without the addendum there can be no stable society, no chance for peace and no chance to end human suffering. That shouldn't imply one agressively stomps out intolerance, but a gentler approach could be used.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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vampirism
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Alan Stone]
#3471238 - 12/09/04 02:58 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why? because you're just human and as such have completely subjective feelings. How can you tell if someone is being intolerant? You become intolerant by making this judgement. Therefore, it simply should not be made.
This requires a more developed view of life- one that doesn't fall into the simple good+evil axis.
edit:
let me expand a little more. If you are intolerant of intolerance and pinpoint someone who is doing something supposedly intolerant, and then act on it - YOU are being intolerant and everyone else can pinpoint you for whatever reason. Most people have good intentions - Hitler had good intentions - but do those, in effect, matter?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: vampirism]
#3471369 - 12/09/04 03:24 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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tolerance and acceptance is the beginning of recovery.
intolerance is surrender to the loss
like is the cup half full or half empty
or
I can handle it
no I can't
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Alan Stone
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: vampirism]
#3471568 - 12/09/04 04:09 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why? because you're just human and as such have completely subjective feelings. How can you tell if someone is being intolerant? You become intolerant by making this judgement. Therefore, it simply should not be made.
Not completely subjective feelings. You can objectively diagnose intolerance by watching how people communicate. If they disregard or seek to discredit/harm anyone on basis of creed, gender, race or social status, they're being intolerant. Same thing if they're overly agressive.
Quote:
This requires a more developed view of life- one that doesn't fall into the simple good+evil axis.
Have I ever, in any of my posts, claimed to believe good and evil are real forces? Did I not put the terms in parentheses?
Quote:
let me expand a little more. If you are intolerant of intolerance and pinpoint someone who is doing something supposedly intolerant, and then act on it - YOU are being intolerant and everyone else can pinpoint you for whatever reason. Most people have good intentions - Hitler had good intentions - but do those, in effect, matter?
If one adopts that view, one is paralysed to do anything about injustice/inhumanity. With that attitude we'd never live in (what passes for) a democracy, Human Rights would never have been written down, and the world would live in anarchy. Anarchy because condeming theft, murder and the likes would fall under the nomer of 'intolerance', and acting upon any disgust those crimes caused would be a newly defined sin.
Playing with words is fun, but don't allow yourself to be pwned by them.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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vampirism
Stranger
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Alan Stone]
#3472081 - 12/09/04 06:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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perhaps. But then you're not being tolerant, so it's best not to fake it  . You have to admit personal choice and preference if you are against intolerance - what you're suggesting hasn't been very well introduced into society. Take tolerance into consideration to race - colleges are discriminating because they want to be tolerant, but the opposite occurs.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Alan Stone]
#3475235 - 12/10/04 08:24 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Stone said:
Why should intolerance be tolerated ?
Um, because to not tolerate intolerance is intolerance.  
Quote:
Doesn't tolerance become meaningless if you do nothing about the intolerance in the world?
I wouldn't think it would become meaningless... first off, being intolerance of intolerance is intolerant. Robots have self-destructed over lesser contradictions in logic before....  Secondly, I do not see how tolerance of everything, even intolerance, foregos inaction regarding intolerance. All the defintions of tolerance that I am pulling up involve withstanding, enduring, forbearance, respecting others rights, showing the capacity for endurance... etc. etc. etc. I came acrossed nothing of tolerance that concerned no longer hearding personal preference and nothing concerning not interacting to produce change in regards to unfavorable actions, states, etc.
Essentially, I can definitely mentally tolerate your perceived misunderstandings involving the tolerance/intolerance issue, but that does not mean that I cannot become involved with offering some illumination on suspossed misunderstanding, as an example.
Quote:
Call me an idealist, but I'd say "Everything should be tolerated BUT intolerance", because without the addendum there can be no stable society, no chance for peace and no chance to end human suffering. That shouldn't imply one agressively stomps out intolerance, but a gentler approach could be used.
Again, it does not make sense to not tolerate intolerance, because you are contradictorily not tolerating your own intolerance. Tolerance does not mean that other's intolerance cannot be addressed and attempted to be treated. The proposed addendum is not necessary. 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Alan Stone
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A-ight, I'll try a different approach.
If words are taken literally, without context, they get twisted into absolutes. The same has happened here, or we wouldn't be having discussions on semantics.
To use the word tolerance in a useful context, "to be tolerant" should be interpreted as a statement of intent, to strive towards being as tolerant as humanly possible.
Being realistic, one can conclude there is no use in being tolerant if other humans don't follow suit. Then we are left with two options.
1) We tolerate intolerance, and the world will never change, because for it to change we need to condemn intolerance and get off our collective arses.
2) We start doing something about intolerance, whether or not that in itself is a tolerant stance, and improve the social factors in every person's life.
I'll take option two anyday. The execution should IMO rely on changing education, changing politics and changing the media. One small way to start on that issue is to change your own environment. If everyone did the same, the problem would be solved within two generations. I myself am on the path to becoming a high school teacher, and I hope to contribute to a good social environment.
PS: This post was based on but one subjective viewpoint: that it is desirable for all of mankind to live in the best possible conditions. That includes me. The rest is logical conclusion.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
Edited by Alan Stone (12/10/04 09:33 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Alan Stone]
#3475396 - 12/10/04 09:44 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Stone said:
If you're addressing it, that means you want them to change. "Treatment" implies even more than change, it implies "change for the better". If you want them to change, you're not being tolerant.
I feel you have a misconception of what exactly the word "tolerant" implies. The main meanings of the word do not consist of acceptance. Tolerance seems to represent the ability to withstand, to endure, and down to respecting other's rights. Perhaps it refers to acceptance in the terms of accepting another's right to, say, hold a certain view, but how does the word tolerance refer to having to agree with their holding of a certain view? Are acceptance and agreement the same?
Quote:
So, to avoid being intolerant, one shouldn't address others' intolerance. Any logical errors there?
I do not see how toleration of another's intolerance results in an inability to not address their intolerance. As I am contending, toleration (to a lesser extent, acceptance) does not equate with acceptance, nor does it have to. I can recognize one's right to shoot another person, I can tolerate the fact that the shooting of another has occured, but that does not imply that I have to agree that the shooting should have happened, or that I cannot act to try to prevent a shooting from occuring.
Quote:
To reverse the issue: if it's okay for others to have an opinion, why is it not okay to have an opinion of your own?
Who said it is not all right to have an opinion of one's own? This is not implied by the definiton of tolerance.
Quote:
I can dig the idea that we shouldn't be judgemental of others. I can also dig that we shouldn't try changing others because of who they are. But condemning judgementalism being judgemental in itself is circular logic that leads nowhere.
I'm not condemning judgementalism here, if that was directed at myself. I don't know exactly how to address this, so inform me how judgementalism, which I guess is the act of being judgemental (;)), is being condemned here.
Quote:
Intolerance is in no way part of who a person truly is.
Neither is tolerance.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Alan Stone
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This is the last I'll say on semantics. Look at my previous, edited post to see what I truly want to say on the issue of tolerance.
Every word has several homonymous meanings, as shown on dictionary.com:
Quote:
1) The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
2) a. Leeway for variation from a standard.
b. The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent.
3) The capacity to endure hardship or pain.
4)Medicine.
a. Physiological resistance to a poison.
b. The capacity to absorb a drug continuously or in large doses without adverse effect; diminution in the response to a drug after prolonged use.
5)a. Acceptance of a tissue graft or transplant without immunological rejection.
b. Unresponsiveness to an antigen that normally produces an immunological reaction.
6. The ability of an organism to resist or survive infection by a parasitic or pathogenic organism.
On respect (dictionary.com):
Quote:
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern.
With so many homonymous, connotative meanings, it's no wonder that 'misconceptions' arise.
Quote:
I don't know exactly how to address this, so inform me how judgementalism, which I guess is the act of being judgemental (), is being condemned here.
Look at the initial post for that one.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
Edited by Alan Stone (12/11/04 06:33 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: Tolerance and Intolerance [Re: Alan Stone]
#3480875 - 12/11/04 06:50 AM (19 years, 4 months ago) |
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I appear to be in a state of sleep deprivation.
Essentially, I make a distinction between tolerance, or acceptance, of every action and occurence on the mental level, concerning the fact that reality is reality and is to be accepted as reality, and tolerance on a level concerning personal preference.
Tolerance on the higher level is essential for one to be completely grounded in reality, as it is pointless to mentally or emotionally "disagree" with actions and states of reality as they occur and be. I think that perhaps you are concerning yourself in this debate with tolerance on the lower level, which would basically imply "letting everything be as it is", holding no preference as to what action occurs, etc. etc. etc. It is basically the distinction between accepting that racial intolerance exists as an aspect of reality, and also noting that one might not personally prefer this aspect of reality, and therefore is free to change this aspect of reality.
Essentially, I still just don't see how tolerance of a state of reality equates into relinquishing the ability to take action to change that state of reality, according to personal preference.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Alan Stone
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Quote:
Essentially, I make a distinction between tolerance, or acceptance, of every action and occurence on the mental level, concerning the fact that reality is reality and is to be accepted as reality, and tolerance on a level concerning personal preference.
A bit of internal consistence there:
Quote:
The main meanings of the word do not consist of acceptance. Tolerance seems to represent the ability to withstand, to endure, and down to respecting other's rights. Perhaps it refers to acceptance in the terms of accepting another's right to, say, hold a certain view, but how does the word tolerance refer to having to agree with their holding of a certain view? Are acceptance and agreement the same?
Quote:
The main meanings of the word [ tolerance ] do not consist of acceptance.
I agree, that's why I tried to reconstruct Morrowind's line of thinking, to see where he was coming from:
Quote:
If you're addressing it, that means you want them to change. "Treatment" implies even more than change, it implies "change for the better". If you want them to change, you're not being tolerant.
If you use definition 1 of tolerance (disrespecting others is a practice too), and definition 2 of respect, you'll have to conclude that doing something about intolerance is being intolerant oneself. That's what Morrowind seems to be saying, and I disagree because that's a pointless attitude. It's what you call 'tolerance on a lower level', and you don't seem to be agreeing either.
Quote:
You said:
Essentially, I still just don't see how tolerance of a state of reality equates into relinquishing the ability to take action to change that state of reality, according to personal preference.
Nor do I, that's why I proposed the paradoxal addendum. For people who take sentences too literally. To which you said:
Quote:
The proposed addendum is not necessary.
Which should have sparked the notion that you already got the message. My bad.
Hope this cleared things up.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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