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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3339122 -

idiots no, amateurs maybe. my stats are at the moment... out of 129 games i have played i have won 116.. in numerous different groups and at the casinos. which in one i played against Sam Korman and Andrew Dimock. they came to the table i was playing at and beat them both...

you know why the best poker players don't do that well because they are playing against someone of their own or better abilities. but before they got started in the circuit they did even better than that.


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suicide a permanent solution to a temporary problem

Edited by spudamore (11/09/04 11:41 PM)

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Tag_Number]
    #3339138 -

Mister Reeves went into a coma the first time I did mushrooms

The first time I did shrooms was June 13, 1994. Does anyone remember what happened on that date? Well my friend left me alone just as I was starting to trip to go get some acid, I turn on the tv and there's that infamous white bronco cruising along with the cops in tow and helicopters overhead. What a trip that was.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic..


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Jellric]
    #3339330 -

"weak swami  :smirk:"

agreed. you failed to adress the clearly stated arguments here, so im not going to add any more. you just dont care or want to hear it.

for anyone who is still confused, positive attitude increases your ability to deal with your reality. It is ALWAYS more beneficial then negative attittude, and christopher reeves used it to overcome many otherwise crippeling limitations, as do so many others.

It will NEVER be better to feel negative or 'give up' than to fight on and maintain hope.

"so you accept non acceptance of reality? isnt that contrary to many ideas here?"

i wouldnt know about that. i havent heard many people preaching surrender and giving up to current situations except you. Spirituality is all about personal power, over the self and reality. It is NEVER better to accept your limitations blindly than to strive for a better self-situation.

As i said before, shoot for the stars and if you miss youll land on a cloud.

another metaphor: your at the bottom of a set of stairs. THe doctors say youll never get to the top of those stairs. you determine that you will. You try and try and believe. You make it to step 3. Thats still 300% better than giving up and sitting at the bottom forever. (bad example but you get the idea)


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3340682 -

I haven't read all the posts, so if I've repeated something, I apologize.

Did he or did he not walk unaided before his death as the picture that he held clearly in his mind?

Well...we can never be certain what he actually held in his mind. All we can do is interpret and speculate. Maybe the claim served a different purpose. Was it a prediction of what was to happen, or a clever tool he purposely used to keep his efforts (as well as researchers) focused. His public ambition certainly raised standards in this medical field and provided a tremendous boost of awareness and progress to SCI and neurological diseases. I believe the claim was a clever tool, not an affirmation.

Whatever the case, he gets an A+ for effort. He deserves much praise.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Viaggio]
    #3341241 -

basically i see it as a very very simple argument

on the one hand, i can observe the postive impact of optimisim, self confidence, positive thinking and high goal setting in my own life and the life of others on a daily basis.

I can also see the negative effects of lack of these things in my own life and others on a daily basis.

That is a substantial reason to believe that it is always better to be positive than not.

On the other hand, swami has provided no good reason why that is not so, he has consistently ignored my direct questions "when is it better to be hopeless and negative than hopefull and positive?"

and has basically given me no reason to even entertain his theory , which as far as i can tell is your attitude and determination have no effect on your success.
(any athlete, buisness man, spiritual seeker, consultant, etc etc would call that nonsense)


He has also based his entire thread with an anecdote, once again proving his hypocrisy in his debate standards (he constantly picks on people for using 'anecdotal evidence')


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (11/10/04 11:56 AM)

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3341362 -

"Did his affirmations and positive thinking as outlined in numerous previous threads enable him to take even a single step after his accident?"

Simply, no. Physically he made no step after his accident...Mentally he ran a marathon in the light of hope. :sun:


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"Im a dreamin man
yes thats my problem
I cant tell when im
not being real"

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3341886 -

Moonshoe said:
On the other hand, swami has provided no good reason why that is not so, he has consistently ignored my direct questions "when is it better to be hopeless and negative than hopefull and positive?"


Maybe he didn't respond because the question is loaded.
Swami's point is not that being hopeful/positive/optimistic has little to no measureable affect on physical reality (psychological benefits are beside the point). This is not just based on anecdote... it's called statistics. Statistically speaking (in most studies), optimism has no affect on rates of healing and the like. False hope is still false hope. And attributing ethereal powers to states of mind is the result of an ego falsely thinking it can control the external world.
That's the point.

Disclaimer: I personally prefer to have an optimistic attitude, because of the psychological benefits.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Sclorch]
    #3342446 -

Zakkly. At least one reader "gets it".


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Sclorch]
    #3342485 -

optimism has no affect on rates of healing and the like

Incorrect. Study after study after study has confirmed that a positive mental attitude speeds healing and has a positive impact upon ones physical health. Is it going to allow a crippled person to walk? Of course not, and Christopher Reeve never said that it would. A positive attitude does however have a measurable statistical impact upon most people. That's the scientific consensus for the last decade at least.


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Jellric]
    #3342665 -

"Maybe he didn't respond because the question is loaded."

meaning exactly what?

"Swami's point is not that being hopeful/positive/optimistic has little to no measureable affect on physical reality (psychological benefits are beside the point)"


now i think you meant to say 'swamis point is that being ..." not "swamis point is not that being" because otherwise this doesnt make sense so ill reply to that...

first off i dont see how psychological benefits are beside the point. the mind body connection has been extensively explored. a negative mental state like anxiety despair or rage can have very negative effects on physical health. And even besides that, psychological benefits are more than worthwhile in there own right.


."This is not just based on anecdote... it's called statistics."

no statistics were provided in this thread, only an anecdote.

"Statistically speaking (in most studies), optimism has no affect on rates of healing and the like."

maybe so, but if thats the case maybe you could link some of those studies? ive heard the opposite

"False hope is still false hope. "

hope is hope. if i hope to finish a marathon and only get half way that is drastically better than having no hope and not running at all. Is this not a simple enough concept?

"And attributing ethereal powers to states of mind is the result of an ego falsely thinking it can control the external world."

i hardly understand what your saying. THe only ethereal power i have ever claimed in this thread is the power to have maximum control over your own life. As people have pointed out, through his intensive unwavering effort reeves managed to regain more body function than would have ever been possible without that effort. nothing ethereal about it. Just like if im on a treadmill and reaching the point of exhaustion, my mind state is capable of propelling me to run far longer than if i had simply obeyed the commands of my body, nothing mystical, or even theoretical about that. and the principle is the same


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Jellric]
    #3343109 -

Jellric said:
optimism has no affect on rates of healing and the like

Incorrect. Study after study after study has confirmed that a positive mental attitude speeds healing and has a positive impact upon ones physical health.


Sources?
Thanks.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Sclorch]
    #3343461 -

Google is your friend. :wink:


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I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3343638 -

Swami said:
Editor's note: Granted this is an anecdote, but that seems to be a popular method of "evidence" on this forum.

Chris Reeve was outwardly as positive a person could be given his paralysis and prognosis. Did his affirmations and positive thinking as outlined in numerous previous threads enable him to take even a single step after his accident?

<Insert standard apology here about how it wasn't his fate; he contributed more to society staying paralyzed; he didn't truly believe; etc.>


Would it have been better for Reeves to continually iterate: "I will never walk again! I'm fucked!"??

I think it's good for us to stay positive, even in spite of a death sentence, when we are living the rest of our lives with that death sentence hanging over our heads.

If I find out I have cancer, should I repeatedly iterate: "I'm fucked! I have cancer! I'm going to die!"?? No, I will keep a positive mind-set and, even if I die one week after finding out I have cancer, I will at least have spent that last week THINKING that I was going to kick cancer's ass.

If I think I'm going to die, I'm probably going to lie around, moaning about my woes. If I think I'm going to live, I'm probably going to do positive things as if I'm going to be around for a while.

Same with Reeves. If he thinks he's going to walk again some day, he will do things geared toward that goal that he might have not done had he sat around whining about how fucked he was and how he was never going to walk around.


Besides the fact that he taught us a great example in perserverance.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3343788 -

?


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 04:22 PM)

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Sclorch]
    #3344038 -

Sclorch said:
Jellric said:
optimism has no affect on rates of healing and the like

Incorrect. Study after study after study has confirmed that a positive mental attitude speeds healing and has a positive impact upon ones physical health.


Sources?
Thanks.


Bahaha sources? This isn't PA&L.


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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3344238 -

Besides, isn't it so much easier to be negative and not try?

Once again please point out the line where I said to be negative and give up; either that or try reading and responding to what was actually written.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3344251 -

Would it have been better for Reeves to continually iterate: "I will never walk again! I'm fucked!"??

As the positive affirmations did not help him attain to that particular goal, the results could only have been the same or better if he had tried something else.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3344415 -

Looks like Christopher Reeve wasn't the best example to back up your useless cynicism, Swami.

These are the facts:

Christopher Reeve was paralyzed.

Christopher Reeve made it his goal to walk again.

Christopher Reeve used optimism and positive outlook as the momentum driving him toward his goal.

Christopher Reeve did not walk again.


Swami's argument is: Positive outlook and optimism are needless virtues because they did not enable Christopher Reeve to regain his unassissted locomotion.

Swami's argument is wrong.

These are the facts:

Positive outlook and optimism do not heal physical disorders.

Negative outlook and pessimism do not heal physical disorders.

Christopher Reeve's intention was to continue improving his quality of life, as well as that of other's, in spite of his condition.

Positive outlook and optimism enable an individual to continue improving theirs and other's quality of life.

Negative outlook and pessimism do not enable an individual to continue improving their or other's quality of life.

Christopher Reeve made it his goal to walk again.

Positive outlook and optimism enable a person to maintain determination toward such a goal.

Negative outlook and pessimism directly undermine a person's ability to maintain determination toward such a goal.


When we look at the facts in their barest terms, a certain logic becomes self-evident. That is this: if Christopher Reeve were to have given himself to self-pity and maintained a negative outlook, it is extremely unlikely that he would have been so fereverent in pursuing his goal to walk again. At the same time, maintaining a negative outlook greatly reduces the likelihood that he would have devoted such enormous amounts of time, money, and energy into raising awareness about and enabling research into his condition.

We can further infer that had Christopher Reeve in fact walked again before his death, it would have been his positive outlook and his determination which played a large hand in his recovery. A negative outlook would not have played any sort of role in his recovery. That is unquestionable.

Of course it's true that the capacity of medical science to reverse permanent injuries does not adjust with the patient's outlook. We don't need Swami to remind us of this fact. However, a patient's positive outlook grants them a kind of openness, which when combined with talented doctors and ingenius scientists, greatly increases one's chances of recovery. We can infer from his writings and his speeches that Reeve's was a man who understood that a person's quality of life depends absolutely upon their perspective. When a man has nothing but his eyes to see and his ears to ear, it is natural that he would come to such a revelation.

Christopher Reeve's remarkable attitude did not lead to his recovery from paralysis. Does this mean that his remarkable attitude was absolutely useless, childishly sentimental? Of course not. That is ridiculous.

It is unquestionable that a negative, self-pitiable attitude would have ensured that the rest of his life remained as immobile as his body.

It was his remarkable attitude that allowed him to take his adversity and transform it into enormous benefit for himself and others. That is something to be admired.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3344630 -

Looks like Christopher Reeve wasn't the best example to back up your useless cynicism, Swami.

Of course it's true that the capacity of medical science to reverse permanent injuries does not adjust with the patient's outlook. We don't need Swami to remind us of this fact.

So making a factual statement is useless cynicism? Perhaps I shoud give sway to falsehoods and fluffy cloud emotionalism?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3344761 -

I was hoping someone would comment on my idea that maybe Reeve did not believe his own claim. I think the statement's purpose was to put researchers on their toes (as opposed to him). Nonetheless, I see Salami's point: positive thinking does not accomplish goals. It does, however, seem to make accomplishments more likely.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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