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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Is Bin Laden even alive?
    #3239302 - 10/10/04 04:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Don't know if this has been discussed recently. I would like to ask our esteemed shroomerites when the last time OBL has been verified to be alive. I did some simple searches of the net, and the last time I can see that people can nail down OBL being alive is December of 2001. That is a long time for a big mouth like Osama to keep his mouth shut.

John Kerry has attacked the Bush Administration for letting Osama slip away from Tora Bora. I would like to see any evidence that Osama did indeed survive Tora Bora. Maybe I am just not finding the right sources, but I think that he is dead, and that he has been dead for 3 years. I wonder what you guys think.
Is Osama Bin Laden Alive?
You may choose only one
No, he is dead
Yes, he is alive


Votes accepted from (10/10/04 04:11 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239317 - 10/10/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Random guesswork = a good poll?


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239324 - 10/10/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Who knows. George Bush stopped looking for Bin Laden 6 months after 9-11 and started looking for Saddam.

What a great decision that was.





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Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: Learyfan]
    #3239325 - 10/10/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

*masturbates*


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239344 - 10/10/04 04:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: ]
    #3239352 - 10/10/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:

Maybe Bush hasn't found him because he put 1000% as many resources into going after Saddam instead.




Proof?


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: retread]
    #3239357 - 10/10/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Random guesswork = a good poll?




I was just throwing it out there. I am asking for help and links in researching this. You don't have to have all the answers to ask the question, and I think it is a legitimate question. I am sorry if it does not meet your standards.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: Learyfan]
    #3239362 - 10/10/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Who knows. George Bush stopped looking for Bin Laden 6 months after 9-11 and started looking for Saddam.

What a great decision that was.





If he is in fact dead, that probably was a sound decision.


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Tastes just like chicken


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239372 - 10/10/04 04:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: ]
    #3239380 - 10/10/04 04:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:
Do you have any reason at all to believe he isn't?

Or is it just that Bush hasn't found him, so he must be dead.

Nice logic.

Maybe Bush hasn't found him because he put 1000% as many resources into going after Saddam instead.




Maybe I shouldn't have brought Bush into the equation to make this a partisan bitch fest. I don't want this question to be about how unjust and terrible Iraq is like every other thread. I want this question to focus on what proof we have that Osama Bin Laden is alive.

I do have a reason to think that he isn't alive. Before Tora Bora, Osama Bin Laden liked to release video tapes to rally the troops. In my judgement, Osama has a large ego. I can't see him going three years being silent. If he was alive, I think he could not resist taunting America and George Bush in particular.

I think that he is dead.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: ]
    #3239398 - 10/10/04 04:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:
Quote:

John Kerry has attacked the Bush Administration for letting Osama slip away from Tora Bora. I would like to see any evidence that Osama did indeed survive Tora Bora.




But proof that he didn't survive isn't necessary for you.




If he is dead and buried, I don't know if we are ever going to find him. I think he is dead because he has been silent for 3 years. He isn't exactly a shy person when it comes to sending out his message. Why do you think he is alive?


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Tastes just like chicken


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239410 - 10/10/04 04:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: ]
    #3239435 - 10/10/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Is Bush advancing the argument that Osama is dead? I missed it if he is. While I support Bush in this election, I would not call my support blind. And don't hate me because I am beautiful.

I have listened to Bush speak during the campaign, and he hasn't been mentioning Osama much at all, much less claiming that he is dead. It is I who am advancing this argument.

I once again apologize for making this partisan by talking about Kerry's assertions about Tora Bora.

If you don't think that Osama has a large ego, good for you. The guy declared war against America. One guy in a bed sheet took on the most powerfull nation in the history of man. That takes a large sack. You can bet that fucker has an ego the size of Mount Rushmore.

Another question, if you don't currently think that Osama is dead, how many years of silence will it take for you to think that he has passed?


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Tastes just like chicken


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239476 - 10/10/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If he is dead, it would be the last thing Bush or Kerry would want us to know about. People are easier to manipulate when they're scared.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3239500 - 10/10/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I thought that you supported the claim that Bush has OBL locked up somewhere to show to the public? Wouldn't him killing bin-laden guarantee him the election?


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Anonymous

Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239506 - 10/10/04 05:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i believe he is dead.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (top-level al qaeda member) slipped up and referred to him in the past tense during an interview back in 2002.

he had serious health problems. there hasn't been a video tape of bin laden released in almost 3 years. at that time, his kidneys had failed, he was nursing a shrapnel wound, very likely had diabetes, and had possibly suffered a stroke. maybe the reason he hasn't been seen for several years now is because he is dead and buried.

dr. sanjay gupta on bin laden's health:

"You can look [at pictures from a December 2001 video] and notice that he has what some doctors refer to as sort of a frosting over of his features -- his sort of grayness of beard, his paleness of skin, very gaunt sort of features... The sort of frosting of the appearance is something that people a lot of times associate with chronic kidney failure, renal failure, certainly someone who is requiring dialysis would have that... He's also not moving his arms. I looked at this tape all the way through its entire length. He never moved his left arm at all. The reason that might be important is because people who have had a stroke -- and certainly people are at increased risk of stroke if they also have kidney failure -- he may have had a stroke and therefore is not moving his left side. And in the rest of the videotape, he does move his right side a little bit more than he does his left. So those are some of the things that are sort of "of note" here in this more recent videotape."


"And again, renal dialysis -- talking about hemodialysis -- is something that really is reserved for patients in end-stage renal failure. That means their kidneys have just completely shut down.

The most common cause of something like that would be something like diabetes and hypertension. Once that's happened, if you're separated from your dialysis machine -- and incidentally, dialysis machines require electricity, they're going to require clean water, they're going to require a sterile setting -- infection is a huge risk with that. If you don't have all those things and a functioning dialysis machine, it's unlikely that you'd survive beyond several days or a week at the most... You certainly need someone who really knows how to run that dialysis machine. You have to have someone who's actually assessing his blood, Osama bin Laden's blood, to see what particular dialysate he would need, and to be able to change his dialysate as needed. So you'd need a kidney specialist, a technician -- quite a few people around him."

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/01/21/gupta.otsc/


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3239512 - 10/10/04 05:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It seems at least TWO tapes from bin Laden have emerged since Tora Bora.

One in February 2003 and one in April of the same year.

From the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2928027.stm

"Since the 11 September attacks, numerous video tapes, audio recordings, facsimiles and other statements have been attributed to Bin Laden, but many are unverifiable."

"In February 2003, an audio tape purporting to be by Bin Laden called for attacks on US and British targets if Iraq was invaded."

And from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/04/15/binladen.tape/

The first tape seems to refer to the forthcoming war in Iraq.

The other eludes to recent terror in Europe.

I can't understand Arabic, but I imagine those are pretty acurate translations.

Seems to most, Bin Laden was alive and recording after Tora Bora.

The voice on the tapes matches other recordings of bin Laden's voice... like a fingerprint.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3239533 - 10/10/04 05:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well gee.
Isn't Osama on dialysis because of failing kidneys?

Even WITH that, under IDEAL conditions.. it's not a permanent solution. Basically, the consensus is he's got diabetes I believe?

Diabetes + dialysis + limited access to both insulin and electricity and sterile conditions + 3 years on the run =

Well. What do you think they equal.



Does that look like a healthy person to you.

Of course it's all speculation. Maybe he doesn't need dialysis, maybe he doesn't have diabetes and maybe his kidneys are still fine, and maybe he still can move the left side of his body (which.. he didn't in the last video he released if i remember it correctly).

However the last audio recording we got from him -- which was fairly recently -- was determined by some Swiss scientists to most likely be a fake. They did the same to 20 known recordings of him, and it correctly identified 19 of them as his voice. Some error in there granted.. but not much.


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revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Anonymous

Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239574 - 10/10/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

here's a page with information about hemodialysis:

http://kidney.niddk.nih.gov/kudiseases/pubs/hemodialysis/#fail

bin laden is dead.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Is Bin Laden even alive? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3239618 - 10/10/04 06:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

i cant answer whether hes dead or alive..but its quite possible that bush will produce him in either form to swing the election if necessary..which right now it isnt...


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