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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,696
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If we killed Bin Laden?
#471856 - 11/27/01 11:15 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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would the U.S. anounce it or keep it a secret in fear that the news would be a trigger for terroris in the U.S. to do whatever it is they are planning?
-------------------- GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#471910 - 11/28/01 12:12 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good question. I never thought much about what could happen by anouncing that the USA got him.
-------------------- >>Jammer>>
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Ishmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/28/99
Posts: 224
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#472826 - 11/28/01 07:48 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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On the news today they said that they had already killed Osam's 'Right hand man' - that the body had been identified. This man was said to be as dangerous and as influential in terrorists circles as Osama himself. That may indicate something...perhaps not.
Ish
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#473365 - 11/29/01 08:32 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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The only problem with killing bin Laden is that you could only do it once....
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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puscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#477354 - 12/02/01 05:01 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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It would certainly be announced. The botom line is public relations, (media and the republican spin). America needs to gloat.
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: puscle]
#477407 - 12/02/01 06:00 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you actually have a problem with killing bin Laden???
Wow. We need to gloat? What planet are you from?
What colour is the sky in your world?
FYI, the funeral pyre in Lower Manhattan still smolders with about 4000 dead, innocent People on it. You just don't get it do you?
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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ChronicPride
Opening my boxof meows

Registered: 11/26/00
Posts: 304
Loc: Seoul, South Korea
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#483060 - 12/07/01 12:41 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yahoo news is reporting that Tora Bora caves have been captured, with no sign of Osama...no shit...the real question is:
a) is he dead and the US is delaying the announcement of his death for political momentum reasons? (every wonder what happens to domestic, global, and moderate Arab states support if the US announces that the chief conspirator of Sept. 11 has been brought to justice (see: dead) and they try to foster support for a political and military move on Iraq? They need to delay the announcement of the death of Osama, until they've wrapped up Al Qaeda in Sudan, Somalia, and Philippines, as well as, build major political support against Iraq. Death of Osama will politically take the wind out of their sails to do that.
b)The US could've stopped him from slipping thru to Pakistan if they wanted to. They've had blanket surveillance coverage of a 30 mile area of where he was. They have either apprehended him thru Arab intelligence in the area or they turned a blind eye to Osama paying off Pakistani intelligence or sympathetic Pashtuns to get him across the border, to achieve (a), maintaining political momentum to move on Iraq, to effectively begin to resolve Middle East conflicts and the resulting oil concerns in region.
I'd like to think that the stinky fucker is buried underneath rubble with his 20 sluts, but i can't help but think that there's a lot more going on politically in this transition from Phase 1 to Phase 2 of the war on terrorism.
-------------------- At this stage of human evolution,the truth about the meaning of life is too unattainably simple for us to comprehend,as contemporary thought is too bogged down with the notion that the answer to the riddle is so elusively complex. - Tonya Harding.
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puscle
genius of love
Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 4,539
Loc: NY
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#483341 - 12/07/01 05:22 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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You misunderstand me. I'm all for his death. My point is, his death will be too important to keep quiet. America wants too see his head on a stick and so do I. Believe me, I get it.
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Lenore
enthusiast
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: puscle]
#483569 - 12/07/01 08:42 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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he ain't dead yet
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upupup
guardian

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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Lenore]
#486606 - 12/10/01 09:25 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Bin Laden dead, Bin Laden alive. It matters little in the big scheme of things. HELLO???? Do any of you eat the shrooms? You thirst for blood? You partake of the "flesh of god's" and care about this man who for all you KNOW could be a fucking actor? Ya'll watch tv huh?
-------------------- Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.
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ChronicPride
Opening my boxof meows

Registered: 11/26/00
Posts: 304
Loc: Seoul, South Korea
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: upupup]
#486818 - 12/11/01 12:36 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excellent point...not many ppl talk about the possible notions of 'staged operations' and 'media image counselling' for political posturing and public perception. How many White House editors are going to go thru that Bin Laden tape that's supposed to be released to the public on Wed? I bet you that they contracted out the editors of Survivor or Big Brother to spin that one the right way.
-------------------- At this stage of human evolution,the truth about the meaning of life is too unattainably simple for us to comprehend,as contemporary thought is too bogged down with the notion that the answer to the riddle is so elusively complex. - Tonya Harding.
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upupup
guardian

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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: ChronicPride]
#487898 - 12/11/01 08:02 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Lou Reed said "don't believe any of what you hear and half of what you see." Works well for me.
-------------------- Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,696
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: upupup]
#488100 - 12/11/01 11:00 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Benjamin Franklin said..
"Freedom o the press belongs to whoever owns the press..."
-------------------- GabbaDj
FAMM.ORG
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Lenore
enthusiast
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: GabbaDj]
#489427 - 12/13/01 12:39 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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well um ok.....
the islamic extremist movements around the world have a concept closely resembling martyrdom and saintliness which could prove very troublesome to the US and allies. It is called Imam, i think. Imam pertains to a mythical leader, invisible either through supernatural means or by simply hiding out. If the US happens to blow up bin Laden and never recover the body, the man will attain the status of Imam. This would be very dangerous considering the mystic fuel that propells these breeds of terrorist.
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#489901 - 12/13/01 02:05 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have a problem with killing bin Laden.
"What planet are you from? "
I am from earth.
"What colour is the sky in your world? "
The sky appears blue most of the time, except around sunup and sundown.
"FYI, the funeral pyre in Lower Manhattan still smolders with about 4000 dead, innocent People on it. You just don't get it do you? "
Oh, well now that you've said that I will abandon my ethics that killing is wrong!
Err, wait. The fact that approximately 3000 people died in New York is not enough to shake my belief that killing is wrong. So ther person(s) who killed those people in New York did something horrible. But that doesn't suddenly make killing right, or make violence a solution to conflict, or make revenge a nobel pursuit.
Some of us don't believe in either the death penalty or war, and this is a combination of the two, in a way....
-------------------- -
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#489940 - 12/13/01 02:46 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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In a perfect world we all talk out our differences while learning to accept them. We do not live in a perfect world as I'm sure you are aware of by now. We cannot talk with these people. They want us dead. We have nothing to say that they would possibly want to hear.
If they could push one button and kill every man, woman and child in this country, and probably a few others, they would do it. They would walk away, brush their hands off and call it a good days work. If you don't think so, you need to come out into the world that most people live in. These people cannot be reasoned with my friend. Of course killing is wrong. All war is an atrocitie!
If we change our policies in the mid-east to suit others, what have we achicved? After all isn't the purpose of a nations foriegn policy to serve it's own and it's allie's interests? At home and abroad? Please grant me this!
Yes we have made some poor choices and backed some folks we never should have in that part of the world. Even the most casual observer can see this.
We abandonded the Afghans after we (America) and the Saudi's helped in that cause. Can you do better??? Is it you that can solve this problem with love??
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#490177 - 12/13/01 06:07 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you truly believe all killing is wrong, you should not want Osama bin Laden to be killed.
If you want him killed, then you do not think all killing is wrong.
I realize that bin Laden would like to wipe the United States off the face of the earth. But doesn't the United States also want to wipe him off the face of the earth?
-------------------- -
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Lenore]
#490180 - 12/13/01 06:09 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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your a fucking genious...
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490197 - 12/13/01 06:22 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let me get this right. If a person is opposed to the taking of human life, then if someone wants to kill him/her or their loved ones, then it would be wrong to take the life of the attacker? Or the one that WILL attack again? Even to the loss of greater life? Can we all agree that bin Laden is a killer?
He does not kill one at a time. He kills by the 1000's. Do you think he will stop? Has he met his quota? If I kill a person that has a reasonable chance of killing at least two more people, am I right to take his life? Have I not saved a life or 2000??? If a person kills several thousand in one day with the help of others, is it not proper to kill them? IS IT SAFE TO ASSUME BIN LADEN WILL KILL AGAIN? IS IT RIGHT TO TAKE THE LIFE OF A PERSON OR THING THAT WILL KILL INNOCENT HUMANS? IF I COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND KILL YOUR WIFE/HUSBAND AND LOOK IN YOUR EYES AND TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE NEXT, THAT YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR FATHER IS NEXT, WHAT WILL YOU DO? WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT YOUR NEIGHBOR IS NEXT? WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT YOUR BOSS, OR CO-WORKER IS NEXT? AT WHAT POINT WILL YOU FIGHT??
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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blahblahblah
Mad Scientist

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 1,022
Loc: South America
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#490472 - 12/13/01 10:12 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok here are my two cents kind of....
Now I am not as educated as many of you, high school has it limits of what is to be learned and I haven't read any books on politics(any suggestion would be good). I really feel that the attacks weren't done by a terrorist group. I think that the U.S. was behind the whole thing. People may think that I am stupid for thinking this but I dunno what it is, something about G.W really doesnt sit well with me, and I have a feeling this whole thing was a plan to get some of the things done that Mr. Bush probably wouldn't have been able to do unless something like this happened. I also feel that Bin Laden if he is not an actor, was somewhat justified in what he did. I think that his tactics were wrong though. He shouldn't have attacked a non-military target. On the other hand though, I can see why he would do this. We attacked them in the gulf war and we were sticking our nose where it didn't belong. We attacked non-military targets and military targets just as he did. basically what I am trying to say is that as a country we are no better than him. We back the descisions made by our politicians, if the majority doenst think it is a good idea then we could stop what was happening (in theory)right? Many of you probably disagree with me on this. Again this is just a gut feeling that something is wrong, and I am but a child.
Edited by blahblahblah (12/13/01 10:15 PM)
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you

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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#490565 - 12/13/01 11:49 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hypothetical scenario: bin Laden has been captured and put on trial in the US. We do our best to give him a fair trial and a lawyer and all that. He is found guilty.
Do you put him to death or life imprisonment with no chance of parole?
-------------------- -
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Violent-J
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490736 - 12/14/01 03:09 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Persoanlly I would want to keep him alive for as long as possible in agonizing pain. If not death, that much he deserves.
Anyway if we do put him to death, there is a good chance he would become the almight jesus type figure to his followers (moreso then he already is, if thats possible). Why give him and his followers that satasfaction? Keeping him locked in a hell hole would be far more fitting. Bring in old Jed with his hickory switch and spiked dildo, all the better :P
-------------------- ------------------------
"Oh Shinon, you crazy diamond!" -- Mr. Burns
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MokshaMan
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Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490772 - 12/14/01 04:17 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Death. I have some problems with the system as it currently stands in the US, but this is not a crime just in the US this should seriously be considered a crime against humanity. As such the only choice is for him to be removed, since we can't send him to some place where he could never be set free and pose a threat once more, the only clear choice is death. This should be a "public" trial. I would almost (in some scary way) prefer if it were an international court, this would help in diminishing bin Laden's mythic status if it were not the US solely that condemned him to death. If we were to imprison him there is always a chance that he could relay messages to his people(possibly through his lawyer) and his jail would be a target as well as making others US citizens targets in hope of exchange. What if they were to free him? Would this not be seen as a great victory provided by Allah?
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
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Ulysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490774 - 12/14/01 04:27 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey captain, nice to see someone spreading a little non-violence. There's far too much violence, and I don't want to be on either side of it. This is like one of those cliches about pots and kettles calling eachother black, even if the kettle might kill again, or whatever.
If america wants to kill and all that, I think they should denounce their status as God Blessed. Then, go ahead and start killing, but don't be a fraud, and don't be ignorant. Killing is killing. Only racists, fools and cowards (and of course a few other breeds of crazy folk) try to distinguish when killing is "right".
If you think america is truly God Blessed, why don't you ask "What would Jesus do?" and then do that. He'd offer some love and some help (even if it was *gasp* inconvenient and boring), he wouldn't drop a bunch of bombs and send in an army of killers, even if that's what the enemy was about.
I say, if you're God Blessed, then start acting like it. And not just related to "should we kill this guy", but related to everything. Then you'll find many of your problems simply vanish. Nobody is disputing the US as a world power, but if you want to keep that status intact, then start taking care of the world. You may not like it, but the balls in your court. People are starving. Bombs and mines are exploding. Is that what you want in your world?
I'd like to see some of this power used for some greater good.
But then I'm a crazy hippy pussy. (God forbid the world might be a better place.)
--------------------
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PGF
square

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490775 - 12/14/01 04:31 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK Jack, say he is found guilty and you want him imprisoned for life. Since you value his life so much, would you, personally, be willing to foot the bill for his life incarceration? How much value do you put on human life? Is it enough to sacrifice your money to support him in his cage and feed and clothe him? Would you get a second job to help pay the dole on this one's life?
I doubt it, seriously, but please answer.
-------------------- ***The Real Shroomery nigger
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Mklangelo
enthusiast
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: blahblahblah]
#490787 - 12/14/01 05:15 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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The one and only thing in your entire post I can agree with is that your are "but a child." Just for the sake of your education, you might want to click the below link.
TAPE
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
Edited by Mklangelo (12/14/01 05:53 AM)
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Mklangelo
enthusiast
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490790 - 12/14/01 05:19 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is a proven fact time and time again that the head of a criminal organization can run his "business" from inside the joint. But putting him behind bars for life does have it's appeal. Putting him in general population @ Sing Sing Prison in upstate New York does have a certain amount of poetic justice! He might last a week there.
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
Edited by Mklangelo (12/14/01 05:22 AM)
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Mklangelo
enthusiast
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: blahblahblah]
#490808 - 12/14/01 06:44 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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You asked for some suggestions on topics relating to our current troubles in the Middle-East. Although this book was written in 1989, it is widely considered "required" reading for anyone who wishes to have even a cursory understanding of the region.
"From Beirut To Jerusalem" by Thomas L. Friedman
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: PGF]
#490922 - 12/14/01 10:20 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Tough question PGF.
But quite simply put, I don't have the financial resources to even support myself right now. I am a dependent.
Are you trying to argue that it's not worth the government's money to keep him in prison? There's a difference between an entire country footing the bill and one person.
I quite honestly don't know what I would do. You can call it a copout, but I really just don't know. Maybe it's cause I got three hours of sleep last night, but I don't know.
-------------------- -
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Captain Jack
i [heart] you

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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#490926 - 12/14/01 10:23 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not if he has no contact with the outside population.
And anyway...
You're still advocating violence.
-------------------- -
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#490948 - 12/14/01 10:43 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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very good, you get an "A"
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Jammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
#490993 - 12/14/01 11:28 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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This news update:
All of the major media is reporting tha Bin Laden is surounded by troops around his cave. Our bombs cant penatrait it.
It should be anytime now!
-------------------- >>Jammer>>
Edited by Jammer (12/14/01 11:29 AM)
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ChronicPride
Opening my boxof meows

Registered: 11/26/00
Posts: 304
Loc: Seoul, South Korea
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Jammer]
#491036 - 12/14/01 12:37 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let's hope so. The actual scoop that went to CNN and they in turn ran it first was 'US officials say that Al Qaeda battling as if they're protecting something valuable in Tora Bora'. I never fully trust a developing story that CNN breaks first anymore. They've become the US version of Al-Jazeera. washingtonpost.com is reporting a more 'lighter' version of that story, which they're usually more reliable (but as all media, not outright trustworthy).
-------------------- At this stage of human evolution,the truth about the meaning of life is too unattainably simple for us to comprehend,as contemporary thought is too bogged down with the notion that the answer to the riddle is so elusively complex. - Tonya Harding.
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PGF
square

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: ChronicPride]
#491068 - 12/14/01 01:18 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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CNN is owned by big corp now and it is no better than Fox News......
I like to watch canadian and german news programs.....they seem less biased sorta
-------------------- ***The Real Shroomery nigger
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MokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
#491151 - 12/14/01 02:50 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>> Not if he has no contact with the outside population.
To put someone in solitary confinement for the rest of their life with no contact with their lawyers would probably been seen as cruel and unusual punishment and thus illegal in the US system. It also would make the prison a target. All they would need to do is get several of their members arrested and have 1 or two that are hired as guards. If they has the resources to train people to fly planes into buildings and allow them to live in the US for a year or more, then I would think they had the resources to get people into the jail. And I'll ask the question once again, wouldn't this be seen as a greater victory provided by Allah? If this were such a great victory wouldn't this allow him to look more mythic than he already does(ie more people would listen to him and follow him)? Wouldn't many people be killed in a prison break of this sort?
It's quite nobel that you're standing by your values, but the fact remains that this is not an ideal situation in a world that is far from ideal. Violence is often not the answer, but in some cases there is no other choice.
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
Edited by MokshaMan (12/15/01 05:05 AM)
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Lenore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/30/00
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
#491364 - 12/14/01 07:10 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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first off,
executions tend to cost more than life in prison, not that this would be the case with an Usama like figure. He would probably not be allowed more than one appeal if that.
I think it is unfortunate that America finds itself, its pride, ideals and god blessedness in the bloodlust for bin laden. If the US is really the civilized people it claims to be there would be an understanding that this business we are in, this War, is a dreadful thing. There can be no joy in it, only more anguish. Only a repressed human would find joy in killing, no matter the circumstances.
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Mklangelo
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: PGF]
#491390 - 12/14/01 07:38 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like the Brits for style. Understated, calm, reasoned. Unlike the American press, (yes I'm a Yank but dear old Mom is from Liverpool) The American press tends to make a fucking mini-series out of everything. It all get's a little catch-phrase. CNN: AMERICA'S NEW WAR. FOX: AMERICA STRIKES BACK. MSNBC: THE HUNT FOR THE KILLERS. and on and on and on.
Below is a quote from PGF concerning the German and Canadian press:
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".....they seem less biased sorta"
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The only people that aren't biased my friend are dead or fooling them selves...
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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MokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Lenore]
#491695 - 12/15/01 01:52 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thank you for asserting that I have blood lust, I did not know this before. Executions could be cut down in costs extremely. The guillotine is quick, effective, cheap, and unlike most of the other metheods there is no doubt that the person would be dead. Executions as they currently stand are more expensive and far less reliable, for example: needles for lethal injections coming out, electric chairs not having enough voltage or there not being enough moisture on someone's head to carry the current properly, hangings where someone chokes instead of the neck being broken immediately, etc. In another thread I have fully stated my support for the death penalty so long as the person remains a threat to others. Bin Laden without any doubt will be a threat. Thank you for also informing me that I take pleasure in murder, I suppose this is why I've written letters to the various governors of Virginia in protest of some of the people that have been killed in my state. The death penalty in my view is much like war, a necessary evil. Should we have allowed the Nazis to continue to spout their rhetoric? Were their crimes not such that they no longer deserved their right to life? While I'll admit that what bin Laden did is hardly comparable to what the Nazis did, it was still a crime against all people of all nations. Any crime against humanity should warrent the forfeiture of the person's life. Take for example the man accused of being the Green River Killer, if he really did murder(in cold blood mind you) the 77 women that he is accused of killing is this not a crime against humanity? Does someone who has violently murdered 77 people deserve to live the rest of his life? Personally I don't think he does, but I consider serial rapist and serial killers to be commiting crimes against humanity since they show a blatent disregard to other's right to life. As I've stated before, I have a probelm with the current system of execution in the US because I think there are far too many execution.
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
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MokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Ulysees]
#491763 - 12/15/01 04:55 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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>> If america wants to kill and all that, I think they should denounce their status as God Blessed. Then, go ahead and start killing, but don't be a fraud, and don't be ignorant. Killing is killing.
I suggest you go back through the bible, plenty of times where "God" tells the Isrealites to kill. While Jesus took the aproach of turn the other cheek(run away and hide seems to be just as valid), a country can not do this in the same way that a person can. BTW if US isn't a blessed nation, why do our "cups over runth"? Now, I'm not saying that we really are, but it seems as if a lot of things have gone our way :).
>>Nobody is disputing the US as a world power, but if you want to keep that status intact, then start taking care of the world.
People would have disputed the US as the world power if we'd have simply turned the other cheek and allowed a massacre to go without response. Plus there are plenty of people who have ruled by the sword and were quite successful. The Roman Empire ruled for quite some time as a world power through force(how do you think they got most of their land?). What about the Roman Emperor Charlemagne(800-814, he gained the title of emperor because of nearly constant military conquests) or the Holy Roman Empire from Otto's time(962-1056, Otto only ruled from 962-973 and his line until 1056 I think) or the British Empire(1588-1945)? Go back and do some history all of these people ruled mostly by force and kept their status in tact for quite some time. I mean the Holy Roman Empire lasted from 962 until it was completely destroyed by Napolean(~1806), and it was mainly a rule by force with the help of church decreee(since the Emperor had to accept who was voted in as Pope, he basicly controled the Papacy until 1250 if memory serves me, so it had most of its power from 962 until 1250). The British Empire basicly ruled the world from 1588(with the defeat of the Spanish Armada) until 1945(although I'm sure you could argue other dates, the end of the second world war with two other major powers, military powers that is, emerging is an acceptable date). The US shall continue as the dominant world power so long as they are able to continue to show a military domanince over every other country, in some cases might really does make right. If that weren't so the US would have been tried for the horror that it inflicted by dropping 2 atomic bombs.
>> But then I'm a crazy hippy pussy.
I know a number of people that have called me evil hippy... and thus a nemesis is born :).
-------------------- Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell
Edited by MokshaMan (12/15/01 05:10 AM)
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Ulysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
#492004 - 12/15/01 12:14 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Mokshaman, those are all good points. I can tell that you're a very intelligent person, I just wish that you were on my side.
I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to spread a little positive vibe, something that says "Violence doesn't always have to be the answer."
But about all that Roman stuff... That was pretty bad business, even if they did hold the power for so very long. The ways they attained it and held it were somewhat less than ethical...
Oh, but I wasn't suggesting "turn the other cheek." I was suggesting a positive action. Negative action generally brings about negative results, and war is pretty negative.
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Edited by Ulysees (12/15/01 12:18 PM)
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Mklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 23 years, 18 days
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
#492139 - 12/15/01 03:25 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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You have to kill someone that has vowed to kill you and everything you represent. And not only have they vowed to do it, they have done it and there is no good reason to think that they will stop for any reason except their death. Wake up to that please. They don't wanna talk. They don't want shit but dead Americans. I don't see what the problem is here. I really don't get the misapplied peace-nik sentiments we are seeing on this board lately. The idea just doesn't apply in this case. Peace only works if both parties want it. If only one wants peace and the other wants war, one of them is going to wind up dead and guess who that will be??
If you and I have a dissagreement and it is about to come to blows and I know you are gonna spread my nose across my fucking face, whether or not I love you does not change the fact that my fucking nose might get spread accross my face.
Sorry chief, it ain't gonna happen...
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Mklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 23 years, 18 days
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
#492184 - 12/15/01 04:53 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't know if you got my PM. I was not attacking you, I just replied to the wrong post. I am on your team on this one.
-------------------- [red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Lenore]
#492729 - 12/16/01 09:25 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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****first off, executions tend to cost more than life in prison****
How?
***I think it is unfortunate that America finds itself, its pride, ideals and god blessedness in the bloodlust for bin laden****
It's also unfortunate that others are too blind to see what he was responsible for and that that deed needs to be punished to the extent of our laws.
****If the US is really the civilized people it claims to be there would be an understanding that this business we are in, this War, is a dreadful thing.****
We are civilized with a known set of rules, unlike a lot of countries. To liken this situation to a form of business is purely pathetic. We weren't at war when this happened so your point is mute. It's funny you don't see this in the middle eastern conflicts.
***There can be no joy in it, only more anguish. Only a repressed human would find joy in killing, no matter the circumstances. ****
No one takes joy in killing in war. More anguish may be correct, however we are not in this to tend to a particular part of our ego, rather to punish those that killed thousands of Americans. The only way to punish is destroy those that did this now and will do the same in the future
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ulysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Innvertigo]
#493363 - 12/16/01 10:33 PM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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Innvertigo, you want to hear something disturbing? I find myself agreeing with some of your posts about this now and then, and it scares me. Why? Because if you're right, the world is a lot shittier than I previously thought it was, or had to be.
Still, I have to hold my beliefs... (in a way not as lame as that looks.)
There has to be balance around us. That means for us to maintain the balance the world is currently in, which is obviously a lot better than some of the possiblities (for some of us at least) there must be people like you, and there must be people on the exact opposite end of the spectrum.
If more of us became like you, the balance would slide, and things might even get too violent for your likings. (though I'm not impying that in a bad way... if you understand.)
If there were more people like me, things might slide the other way (if it was only "our" culture, and not a global thing) and things would get fucked around pretty good. Though I'm always open to the possibility that that might be a good thing, I've also seen all the Mad Max and Road Warrior films.
Shit. I think that made sense.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Ulysees]
#493650 - 12/17/01 09:02 AM (23 years, 2 months ago) |
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***Innvertigo, you want to hear something disturbing? I find myself agreeing with some of your posts about this now and then***
eh..thanks..batting .500 beats striking out i guess.
****Because if you're right, the world is a lot shittier than I previously thought it was, or had to be****
The world is shitty and if you have a bunch of cume-by-ya (camp fire song..don't know the spelling) people running the governments, we will get a false interpretation of what is really out there. I'm sorry but when someone attacks you, you don't just sit there and take or try to justify in your mind why it happened...you just know that it is not going to happen again.
****Still, I have to hold my beliefs... (in a way not as lame as that looks.) There has to be balance around us. *****
I can respect that..it's too bad there are many on this board who equate disagreement with total denial of their beliefs, predjudice, racism, and whatever politically correct term you can fit in.
***That means for us to maintain the balance the world is currently in, which is obviously a lot better than some of the possiblities (for some of us at least) there must be people like you***
While the earth would be easier to control if everyone thought like me it would get very boring. Just as GWB said it would be easier to run if it were a dictatorship..but it is not and there are some giving and taking
****Though I'm always open to the possibility that that might be a good thing, I've also seen all the Mad Max and Road Warrior films****
I agree.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Ulysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Innvertigo]
#493832 - 12/17/01 02:14 PM (23 years, 1 month ago) |
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Life is strange, isn't it?
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Proteus
member

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 103
Loc: Dallas, TX
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Ulysees]
#530001 - 01/24/02 09:30 AM (23 years, 24 days ago) |
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Bin Laden is a Martyr to his people and his cause (which I dont agree with).
The problem with MArtyrs is that if they die - they have achieved their goal.
The problem with America is that we like to kill people.
The illogic is quite clear....
Bin Laden will, in the end, win by losing.
It sucks and pisses me off that the majority of America can;t see this b/c we're all over-zealous media-sheep....
Oh well... OUr grandkids will be reading about it in their History Books at school and see where everyone went wrong.
-------------------- There is the theory of the Mobius Strip
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Proteus]
#530192 - 01/24/02 01:07 PM (23 years, 23 days ago) |
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****OUr grandkids will be reading about it in their History Books at school and see where everyone went wrong. ****
First off bin ladden is not our primary objective..
second, what have we done that was wrong?
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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