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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
    #490565 - 12/13/01 11:49 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Hypothetical scenario: bin Laden has been captured and put on trial in the US. We do our best to give him a fair trial and a lawyer and all that. He is found guilty.

Do you put him to death or life imprisonment with no chance of parole?


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineViolent-J
addict

Registered: 08/02/99
Posts: 391
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490736 - 12/14/01 03:09 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Persoanlly I would want to keep him alive for as long as possible in agonizing pain. If not death, that much he deserves.

Anyway if we do put him to death, there is a good chance he would become the almight jesus type figure to his followers (moreso then he already is, if thats possible). Why give him and his followers that satasfaction? Keeping him locked in a hell hole would be far more fitting. Bring in old Jed with his hickory switch and spiked dildo, all the better :P


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"Oh Shinon, you crazy diamond!" -- Mr. Burns


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490772 - 12/14/01 04:17 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Death. I have some problems with the system as it currently stands in the US, but this is not a crime just in the US this should seriously be considered a crime against humanity. As such the only choice is for him to be removed, since we can't send him to some place where he could never be set free and pose a threat once more, the only clear choice is death. This should be a "public" trial. I would almost (in some scary way) prefer if it were an international court, this would help in diminishing bin Laden's mythic status if it were not the US solely that condemned him to death. If we were to imprison him there is always a chance that he could relay messages to his people(possibly through his lawyer) and his jail would be a target as well as making others US citizens targets in hope of exchange. What if they were to free him? Would this not be seen as a great victory provided by Allah?


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490774 - 12/14/01 04:27 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Hey captain, nice to see someone spreading a little non-violence. There's far too much violence, and I don't want to be on either side of it. This is like one of those cliches about pots and kettles calling eachother black, even if the kettle might kill again, or whatever.

If america wants to kill and all that, I think they should denounce their status as God Blessed. Then, go ahead and start killing, but don't be a fraud, and don't be ignorant. Killing is killing. Only racists, fools and cowards (and of course a few other breeds of crazy folk) try to distinguish when killing is "right".
If you think america is truly God Blessed, why don't you ask "What would Jesus do?" and then do that. He'd offer some love and some help (even if it was *gasp* inconvenient and boring), he wouldn't drop a bunch of bombs and send in an army of killers, even if that's what the enemy was about.

I say, if you're God Blessed, then start acting like it. And not just related to "should we kill this guy", but related to everything. Then you'll find many of your problems simply vanish. Nobody is disputing the US as a world power, but if you want to keep that status intact, then start taking care of the world. You may not like it, but the balls in your court. People are starving. Bombs and mines are exploding. Is that what you want in your world?

I'd like to see some of this power used for some greater good.

But then I'm a crazy hippy pussy. (God forbid the world might be a better place.)


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InvisiblePGF
square

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490775 - 12/14/01 04:31 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

OK Jack, say he is found guilty and you want him imprisoned for life. Since you value his life so much, would you, personally, be willing to foot the bill for his life incarceration? How much value do you put on human life? Is it enough to sacrifice your money to support him in his cage and feed and clothe him? Would you get a second job to help pay the dole on this one's life?

I doubt it, seriously, but please answer.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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OfflineMklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 28 days
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: blahblahblah]
    #490787 - 12/14/01 05:15 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

The one and only thing in your entire post I can agree with is that your are "but a child." Just for the sake of your education, you might want to click the below link.

TAPE



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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


Edited by Mklangelo (12/14/01 05:53 AM)


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OfflineMklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 28 days
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490790 - 12/14/01 05:19 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

It is a proven fact time and time again that the head of a criminal organization can run his "business" from inside the joint. But putting him behind bars for life does have it's appeal. Putting him in general population @ Sing Sing Prison in upstate New York does have a certain amount of poetic justice! He might last a week there.


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


Edited by Mklangelo (12/14/01 05:22 AM)


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OfflineMklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 28 days
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: blahblahblah]
    #490808 - 12/14/01 06:44 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

You asked for some suggestions on topics relating to our current troubles in the Middle-East. Although this book was written in 1989, it is widely considered "required" reading for anyone who wishes to have even a cursory understanding of the region.

"From Beirut To Jerusalem" by Thomas L. Friedman


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: PGF]
    #490922 - 12/14/01 10:20 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Tough question PGF.

But quite simply put, I don't have the financial resources to even support myself right now. I am a dependent.

Are you trying to argue that it's not worth the government's money to keep him in prison? There's a difference between an entire country footing the bill and one person.

I quite honestly don't know what I would do. You can call it a copout, but I really just don't know. Maybe it's cause I got three hours of sleep last night, but I don't know.


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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InvisibleCaptain Jack
i [heart] you

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 4,113
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
    #490926 - 12/14/01 10:23 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Not if he has no contact with the outside population.

And anyway...

You're still advocating violence.


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Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.


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OfflineMklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 28 days
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #490948 - 12/14/01 10:43 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

very good, you get an "A"


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


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OfflineJammer
Computers areMORE Addictive!

Registered: 11/04/00
Posts: 3,998
Loc: (God's Country) - USA
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Mklangelo]
    #490993 - 12/14/01 11:28 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

This news update:

All of the major media is reporting tha Bin Laden is surounded by troops around his cave. Our bombs cant penatrait it.

It should be anytime now!


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>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (12/14/01 11:29 AM)


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InvisibleChronicPride
Opening my boxof meows

Registered: 11/26/00
Posts: 304
Loc: Seoul, South Korea
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Jammer]
    #491036 - 12/14/01 12:37 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Let's hope so. The actual scoop that went to CNN and they in turn ran it first was 'US officials say that Al Qaeda battling as if they're protecting something valuable in Tora Bora'. I never fully trust a developing story that CNN breaks first anymore. They've become the US version of Al-Jazeera. washingtonpost.com is reporting a more 'lighter' version of that story, which they're usually more reliable (but as all media, not outright trustworthy).


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At this stage of human evolution,the truth about the meaning of life is too unattainably simple for us to comprehend,as contemporary thought is too bogged down with the notion that the answer to the riddle is so elusively complex. - Tonya Harding.


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InvisiblePGF
square

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: ChronicPride]
    #491068 - 12/14/01 01:18 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

CNN is owned by big corp now and it is no better than Fox News......
I like to watch canadian and german news programs.....they seem less biased sorta


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***The Real Shroomery nigger


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Captain Jack]
    #491151 - 12/14/01 02:50 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

>> Not if he has no contact with the outside population.

To put someone in solitary confinement for the rest of their life with no contact with their lawyers would probably been seen as cruel and unusual punishment and thus illegal in the US system. It also would make the prison a target. All they would need to do is get several of their members arrested and have 1 or two that are hired as guards. If they has the resources to train people to fly planes into buildings and allow them to live in the US for a year or more, then I would think they had the resources to get people into the jail. And I'll ask the question once again, wouldn't this be seen as a greater victory provided by Allah? If this were such a great victory wouldn't this allow him to look more mythic than he already does(ie more people would listen to him and follow him)? Wouldn't many people be killed in a prison break of this sort?

It's quite nobel that you're standing by your values, but the fact remains that this is not an ideal situation in a world that is far from ideal. Violence is often not the answer, but in some cases there is no other choice.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Edited by MokshaMan (12/15/01 05:05 AM)


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InvisibleLenore
enthusiast
Registered: 01/30/00
Posts: 366
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #491364 - 12/14/01 07:10 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

first off,
executions tend to cost more than life in prison, not that this would be the case with an Usama like figure. He would probably not be allowed more than one appeal if that.

I think it is unfortunate that America finds itself, its pride, ideals and god blessedness in the bloodlust for bin laden. If the US is really the civilized people it claims to be there would be an understanding that this business we are in, this War, is a dreadful thing. There can be no joy in it, only more anguish. Only a repressed human would find joy in killing, no matter the circumstances.


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OfflineMklangelo
enthusiast
Registered: 10/30/01
Posts: 297
Loc: Continental United States
Last seen: 22 years, 28 days
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: PGF]
    #491390 - 12/14/01 07:38 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

I like the Brits for style. Understated, calm, reasoned. Unlike the American press, (yes I'm a Yank but dear old Mom is from Liverpool) The American press tends to make a fucking mini-series out of everything. It all get's a little catch-phrase. CNN: AMERICA'S NEW WAR. FOX: AMERICA STRIKES BACK. MSNBC: THE HUNT FOR THE KILLERS. and on and on and on.

Below is a quote from PGF concerning the German and Canadian press:

\--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
".....they seem less biased sorta"
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/

The only people that aren't biased my friend are dead or fooling them selves...




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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Lenore]
    #491695 - 12/15/01 01:52 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you for asserting that I have blood lust, I did not know this before. Executions could be cut down in costs extremely. The guillotine is quick, effective, cheap, and unlike most of the other metheods there is no doubt that the person would be dead. Executions as they currently stand are more expensive and far less reliable, for example: needles for lethal injections coming out, electric chairs not having enough voltage or there not being enough moisture on someone's head to carry the current properly, hangings where someone chokes instead of the neck being broken immediately, etc. In another thread I have fully stated my support for the death penalty so long as the person remains a threat to others. Bin Laden without any doubt will be a threat. Thank you for also informing me that I take pleasure in murder, I suppose this is why I've written letters to the various governors of Virginia in protest of some of the people that have been killed in my state. The death penalty in my view is much like war, a necessary evil. Should we have allowed the Nazis to continue to spout their rhetoric? Were their crimes not such that they no longer deserved their right to life? While I'll admit that what bin Laden did is hardly comparable to what the Nazis did, it was still a crime against all people of all nations. Any crime against humanity should warrent the forfeiture of the person's life. Take for example the man accused of being the Green River Killer, if he really did murder(in cold blood mind you) the 77 women that he is accused of killing is this not a crime against humanity? Does someone who has violently murdered 77 people deserve to live the rest of his life? Personally I don't think he does, but I consider serial rapist and serial killers to be commiting crimes against humanity since they show a blatent disregard to other's right to life. As I've stated before, I have a probelm with the current system of execution in the US because I think there are far too many execution.


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


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InvisibleMokshaMan
enthusiast
Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 280
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: Ulysees]
    #491763 - 12/15/01 04:55 AM (22 years, 2 months ago)

>> If america wants to kill and all that, I think they should denounce their status as God Blessed. Then, go ahead and start killing, but don't be a fraud, and don't be ignorant. Killing is killing.

I suggest you go back through the bible, plenty of times where "God" tells the Isrealites to kill. While Jesus took the aproach of turn the other cheek(run away and hide seems to be just as valid), a country can not do this in the same way that a person can. BTW if US isn't a blessed nation, why do our "cups over runth"? Now, I'm not saying that we really are, but it seems as if a lot of things have gone our way :).

>>Nobody is disputing the US as a world power, but if you want to keep that status intact, then start taking care of the world.

People would have disputed the US as the world power if we'd have simply turned the other cheek and allowed a massacre to go without response. Plus there are plenty of people who have ruled by the sword and were quite successful. The Roman Empire ruled for quite some time as a world power through force(how do you think they got most of their land?). What about the Roman Emperor Charlemagne(800-814, he gained the title of emperor because of nearly constant military conquests) or the Holy Roman Empire from Otto's time(962-1056, Otto only ruled from 962-973 and his line until 1056 I think) or the British Empire(1588-1945)? Go back and do some history all of these people ruled mostly by force and kept their status in tact for quite some time. I mean the Holy Roman Empire lasted from 962 until it was completely destroyed by Napolean(~1806), and it was mainly a rule by force with the help of church decreee(since the Emperor had to accept who was voted in as Pope, he basicly controled the Papacy until 1250 if memory serves me, so it had most of its power from 962 until 1250). The British Empire basicly ruled the world from 1588(with the defeat of the Spanish Armada) until 1945(although I'm sure you could argue other dates, the end of the second world war with two other major powers, military powers that is, emerging is an acceptable date). The US shall continue as the dominant world power so long as they are able to continue to show a military domanince over every other country, in some cases might really does make right. If that weren't so the US would have been tried for the horror that it inflicted by dropping 2 atomic bombs.

>> But then I'm a crazy hippy pussy.

I know a number of people that have called me evil hippy... and thus a nemesis is born :).


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Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is happiness.
-- George Owell


Edited by MokshaMan (12/15/01 05:10 AM)


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: If we killed Bin Laden? [Re: MokshaMan]
    #492004 - 12/15/01 12:14 PM (22 years, 2 months ago)

Mokshaman, those are all good points. I can tell that you're a very intelligent person, I just wish that you were on my side. :wink:
I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to spread a little positive vibe, something that says "Violence doesn't always have to be the answer."

But about all that Roman stuff... That was pretty bad business, even if they did hold the power for so very long. The ways they attained it and held it were somewhat less than ethical...

Oh, but I wasn't suggesting "turn the other cheek." I was suggesting a positive action. Negative action generally brings about negative results, and war is pretty negative.


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Edited by Ulysees (12/15/01 12:18 PM)


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