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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: People who bring great change [Re: Stinky]
    #3185996 -

Ah hah!  Good one, Stinky.  Take that, trendal  :razz:  I'm confident there are more examples of intentional change, advancement than accidental discoveries.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: Viaggio]
    #3186391 -

I bet if you really take a look at these situations, you will see that while they may not be "accidental" they still do not fall down to the mere intentions of a single person. When i said most advancement comes by "accident" I probably used the wrong word. What I mean is that most advancement seems to come without warning and independant from individual intention. Very, very few things are invented by a single person toiling away for years in their basement or lab. Individual advancements occur when someone happens to fit together the peices which already exist. Was Dr. King the sole reason for the black civil rights movement? Or was he lucky enough to find himself in JUST the right time and place to kick off the movement?

Do you see my idea, yet? Things do not happen randomly...yet neither do they happen by individual choice.

Things happen when all the precursors come together in the right form.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: trendal]
    #3186420 -

Though I do not know a great deal about Dr. King himself, I would be willing to bet that if you take a good look at the events leading up to his becoming a public figure for the black rights movement you would see that such things did not come about because Dr. King woke up one morning and thought "hey...I should lead a black rights movement!".

In fact, I would argue that (at least in the start) he didn't have any specific intention to begin a movement. He probably found himself in situations that he did not like (racism, segragation) and reacted to them however he could. His reaction, in turn, led to the movement to which he is now redeemed as a figurehead.

For example, I could not (however I try) start a "geek rights" movement. I could parade around as much as I wish and speak of the torment and ridicule we geeks receive on a regular basis...but it would fall mostly on deaf ears. The conditions which would foster this movement do not exist. I cannot do this...not because of personal limitations, but because CHANGE (on a large scale) does not happen by personal intention. I could only accomplish such a thing if the conditions were already there and were just "waiting" for someone to come around and get things rolling.

What I propose is that the specific person credited with "starting" change is not the one who actually causes the change. They are only the expression of a MUCH larger issue that has remained silent for some time.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: trendal]
    #3186981 -

Tren,

The more you add here, the more it sounds like you are getting to the topic of synchronicities.

Related to the topics brought up in this thread, is synchronicity a field of conscious intention behind the unintentional?

Could it help lead us to understand why there are "no" accidents or the timing of events which could bring about less force applied in life to make things fit that don't, more patience, acceptance and going with the flow? (looking for possible benefit here)

If there is such a field, and I swear I live in awareness of that field because I am riddle with many synchronicities a day, who or what created it? Did our higher selves set it up to give us a guide in limited awareness or is their two way communcation going on between the free will events of this field realm and the the fabric of synchronicity.

I explore and question all of this myself often and then I stop because free will issues get sticky. The thought of everything being preplanned irks me and yet, if we are the planners and we just wanted to experience lving out the plan, then free wil remains indirectly.

The part that bugs me is, what if the will of the you , that you are aware of in this life, is in conflict with your higher will? Does this one get to change that one or are we bound to surrender to it sooner or later?

If any of this is close to how it might be, I like to think that two way communication and tweeking is going on to keep free will at all levels in play.

I'm seeing one way to look at synchronicity as it being the pulse or timing of universal harmonics. When we are in tune with the universal harmonics, we become aware of the synchronicity and are moved by it. When we are in discord with universal harmonics and rythmic flows, we of course, won't see it or be moved by it and life will become difficult as in being out of step. Like a song and a pre choreographed dance. Just some odd thoughts.

I would appreciate what others have to add to this IF they beleive in the possibility of synchronicity. If you don't then this topic of exploration has no where to go and I think some more people here can take it deeper or further.

Thanks for inspiring me to look at synchronicity from some new views here. It use to be a topic to big for me to wrap my head around, but maybe, it's "time" to understand it better now like your idea of the one being the catlyst for the silent that was brewing. Maybe you or this post is the catalyst and the movement of many voices can add pieces to this puzzle for some of us.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: trendal]
    #3187444 -

I suppose both intended changes for advancement and discoveries are like apples and oranges (they grow all the time).  I'm not sure which grows more prominently, but is anyone?  No using google to answer that--metaphoric.  Change comes in all shapes and sizes, and from different flavors (granny smith to tangy citrus).

Change, by either means, is a result of several factors leading to more factors, which factor into other factors that have subtle but ample effects on certain factors needed to create the necessary factors for change.  I might have missed something, so pretend I said "factors" a few more times.

Chaos theory?  Hmm...is there such thing as an intended discovery?  :wink:
Maybe everything is intentional, but whose intending all of this?  Some divine stoned-out hippy?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: Viaggio]
    #3187472 -

Chaos theory? Hmm...is there such thing as an intended discovery?

You get the prize for first to pin my idea down :wink:

Is there such a thing? Or is it the unpredictible order of chaos?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: trendal]
    #3187486 -

Yes, change is just the observation of the differing moments of spacetime.

Intent is delusion :smile:


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: trendal]
    #3187522 -

You get the prize for first to pin my idea down...
Thanks, but I swear I never intended to do that.  Some hippy in the clouds just used me as a vessel :smirk:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: Viaggio]
    #3187678 -

Does theos "order", the compliment to chaos fit in here and how? does order come out of chaos or does chaos come out of order? Do they cycle in and out of each other creating evolution as in the ordered lab experiment gone chaotic but a new disovery is made contributing to the evolution of medicine?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3187922 -

Order is perceptualized chaos. Chaos itself is also just a perceptual label, although the fundamental concept behind it, which is a lack of order or design, holds true to the entirity of the universe (outside of subjective perceptions). The perceptions themselves arise, for whatever reason or lack thereof, out of this 'chaotic' dance.


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: deff]
    #3188228 -

deff said:
Order is perceptualized chaos. 


I like that! :tongue: At least the sound of it. Would you expansiate on it, how perception is formed to percieve a sense of order out of chaos. And hwat the difference is between percpetion that sees chaos versus one that sees order.

You are saying they are the same thing and just see from duality opposites right? if thats it, you don't need to explain.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188249 -

That's pretty much it. Basically, our own sense of logic-backed perception would not operate with pure chaos as input, so rather it acts as a filter, creating perceptualized order out of the truly infinite chaos. Expandin on this, outside our perceptions, our own perceptions are nothing more than arising patterns within this infinite system.

Really there are no absolutes, there are no boundaries, there are no morals, there is no objective intent, there is no meaning, there is no seperation. All of these things are self imposed illusions within our subjective view of the chaotic objective void. We thrive on creating illusionary order and duality in order to function as we do :smile:


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: deff]
    #3188369 -

I can totally see that and can add that I think some people thrive on chaos- I thrive in both simulataneously. LOL

I was also looking at this from another angle. I was applying all of this to a riot situation. The riot would be chaos, that stemmed from an existing order. I started to look at the energy pattern behind it. You did mention patterns.

It's as if there was an order of sorts, but energy (if expansive in nature) begins to build pressure within the limted form of and order and eventually blows from the pressure resulting in the, the riot, the accident, appearant chaos. Then things settle back into a refined sort of order and then it builds under pressure and blows again. I see this underlying pattern and how it can move along or at least assist evolution.

Patterns patterns patterns, where do they arise from? Is chaos itself a pattern that has this cyclical order? If so , that puts me back to wanting to look further into the underling energy of universal harmonics.

After going back and forth with you, I no longer see discord or the points of chaos as being out of step, but actually keeping in tune and in time with universal harmonics. I think I did before but didn't have it grounded in a comprehesive understanding until now. Now I can play with it.

Thanks deff!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188529 -

Good example :smile:

Let's look at it a bit more.

The riot (chaos) appears to have broken out of the confined pressure of society (order). However, both of these traits (chaos and order) are assigned purely by an observing perception and they only apply within that perception. What I mean is, sure to a bystander - a riot appears quite chaotic, or lacking the regulatory order placed on everyday "life". However, if we're talking energy here, both situations appear chaotic outside of perception (or atleast in my perception of being out of perception :wink:). We see people acting civil as order, and people acting moblike as chaos, yet both are comprised if the same chaotic atomic designs, infinite variable interactions, all within a chaotic gallaxy of constantly interacting and morphing energy within seemingly infinite dimensions. You can start to see how subjective these terms really are...

Or another example based on this same example. We view the riot as 'chaotic' because we are experiencing a linear time succession of events, in which the later moments appear subjectively more destructive and less orderly than the last. However, time is only within perception. Outside of this, it is all one moment, one hyperspatial object devoid of timeframe succession, and definitely not resembling the subjective chaos observed by our perceptions within this very limited spacetime of the universe.

So, where am I going? Basically these are terms to describe our perception of events. Really, it is always what we would consider chaos, only until we are able to mentally group/classify sensory input into an illusionary 'order'. Or something like that :smile:


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188540 -

I wanted to add this to get clarity. What you are saying is that chaos has no intent and the only meaning that comes out of it is what we prescribed to it and that is the illusion? Wouldn't that be saying that beyond what meaning we personally give events and such that their is no meaning objective to it? If so, Thats deep.

Of course, we put up our own objections to the meaning people impart unto events. If we didn't do that, what would happen to our sense of meaning? Would life start to be experienced as being meaningless without any objection put up to it?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188553 -

We double posted, I just read your last one, that was cool. It read like you are on speed. LOL, but I followed it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188555 -

Yes, exactly what I'm saying

Meaning is subjective and not objective, as are all 'qualities' :laugh:


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3188566 -

Missed that one of yours too :smile:

No, not on speed, although I can see why one might think I am  :eyemouth:


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Re: People who bring great change [Re: deff]
    #3188670 -

Thanks for bouncing these lines of thought around. Now I want to think about how it all applies to the discovery of penicillon and Dr. Martin Luther King. :tongue:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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