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Invisibleretread
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What is "mainstream Islam"?
    #3099118 - 09/06/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

With the recent attacks in Chechnya and Zahid's presence on the boards representing the non"extreme" Muslims, it seems that we have divided Islam into two parts, based mainly on what Zahid and other Islamic people tell us. These parts are the "extreme" form of Islam, the Islam where murdering children and suicide bombing on a bus is praised by Allah and rewarded by X number of virgins in heaven, and the "mainstream" form of Islam, portrayed by Zahid and others as a religion of peace that is against such actions.

My question would be as to how one determines which group is the bigger part of the religion and thus, which interpretation of Islam is more widely accepted as the "correct" version by it's followers. I'm sure that the dictators that run the nations in the Middle East are pushing the more 'radical' form of Islam as the true interpretation on all of their people. This means that the Arab Muslims that live in the Middle East, and in Chechnya most likely, are being fed the radical form of Islam. I would say that hardly any of them believe in a more peaceful brand of Islam. Many American and European Muslims, such as the clerics organizing the pro-9/11 convention that pinksharkmark referred, are also followers of the more radical "Extreme" form of Islam.

Now, if the vast majority of mid-east muslims are into the extreme view of Islam, and their are a good number of American and European muslims who are prone to accept that view of Islam, why are we calling it the "Radical" or "extreme" form of Islam, and the peaceful minority is "mainstream" islam?

If the entire Christian faith and all of it's followers were under the impression that killing Jews was the OK thing to do, and would guarantee a seat next to god, but a small group of Christians were against it, noone would call the small peaceful group "mainstream" christianity, would they?

If the majority of Muslims believe in the radical form of Islam, isn't that enough to say that true mainstream Islam IS the extreme form and the "radicals" are those who believe that Islam isa religion of peace? Isn't that enough to paint a negative picture of the entire religion and stop this charade of the "religion of peace" with a few individuals who misunderstand the teachings?


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099153 - 09/06/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)



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Offlinethieverycorp
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099156 - 09/06/04 03:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think, rather than using "mainstream" perhaps you should use "true," with the whole question being, "what is true Islam?" I'm not Christian, but I feel that what is being practiced today is not "true" Christianity, and that is how I feel about these extremist Muslims and their practice of Islam...


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099172 - 09/06/04 03:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

if all muslims were truly extemist supporters of terrorism we would have a MUCH larger problem on are hands


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Invisibleretread
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3099176 - 09/06/04 03:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Where the hell did I say that "all muslims" were? The skill of literacy, and the requirement of said skill to post on this board, would greatly decrease the amount of wasteful posts.

Do you think that the people living in Saudi Arabia, being force-fed Wahhabism, are "mainstream" or "radical"? Iraq? Iran? Egypt? etc?


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099184 - 09/06/04 03:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i think the income level/quality of life of a muslim directly effects the level of their muslim extremism


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3099198 - 09/06/04 03:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What does it mean to get crunk?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099215 - 09/06/04 03:40 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Are the majority of Muslims carrying out terrorist attacks? No. Many of the mainstream Muslims have been victims of extremist Muslim attacks. Mainstream Islam does tend to be rather socially conservative, but most do not want to be terrorists. Now, as far as supporting terrorism, that's kind of a sticky issue. Many of them, especially in Palestine, see it as their only real weapon against a much more heavily armed enemy. I've talked to some Palestinians who say they have no problem with it as long as they only go after military targets. Then there's Bin Laden. Many people in the Muslim world, particularly the more conservative parts, look up to him as a hero for standing up to their percieved oppressor, America, even if they don't agree with all his ideology. Secular Islam is common in many populated urban areas throughout the Muslim world. Anyway, you have to understand that this issue isn't black and white. There are many shades of grey.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099229 - 09/06/04 03:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Read the pdf files here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3098408

Mark Gabriel's book explains the difference between moderate and extremist Muslims.

You can download Adobe Acrobat Reader for free here http://www.adobe.com if you don't have it installed already.

There's various stages of jihad. When Muslims become a majority in a country they try to take over and put in place sharia law and try to convert everyone in the country to Islam. Christians and Jews don't have to convert, but have to live as dhimmis and pay a tax (jizyah). If they don't pay the tax they are killed by fanatics or executed by the government. Buddhists and Hindus have to convert to Islam or die. Islam is like a Trojan horse.

Read about dhimmis here http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/


Edited by Great_Satan (09/06/04 03:48 PM)


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3099241 - 09/06/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)



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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099256 - 09/06/04 03:50 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race.





http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

This happens when Muslims become a majority in a particular country. As the Muslim population continues to expand they will constantly shit on more and more people.


Edited by Great_Satan (09/06/04 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099288 - 09/06/04 03:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You can see the proof of what I'm saying by looking at the world today. There are countries that have Sharia law in place, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, for example. The population is virtually 100% Muslim, either Sunni or Shiite. Sunnis and Shiites fight each other when they aren't fighting non-Muslims and join forces to fight non-Muslims when they need to. Other countries aren't as clearly defined. There are some countries that have a majority Muslim population, but don't have sharia law in place, for example, Turkey. In these countries, fanatics are always trying to overthrow the government and put sharia law in place.


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InvisibleDieCommie
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099301 - 09/06/04 04:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Did most Germans gas Jews? No. Did most Southern white men own black slaves? No. Did the general population know, accept and defend these actions? Yes! This is also the case with Arab Muslims. Of course most of them do not carry out attacks, but their society knows, accepts, and defends these actions.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099315 - 09/06/04 04:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The Types of Jihad
http://www.ummah.net.pk/harkat/jihad/t-jihad.htm
(site is offline, but here's the google-cache of the article)
There are two types of Jihad against the Kuffar

1- Offensive Jihad
2- Defensive Jihad

1- Offensive Jihad is when the Muslims launch an offensive attack. If this attack is on the Kuffar who have previously received the message of Islam, then to call them towards Islam before commencement of the attack is considered preferable.

However, if the message of Islam has not reached them, then the Kuffar will be invited towards Islam. If they reject this true faith, then they will have to pay Jizyah (Kufr tax). If they refuse to submit to the payment of Jizyah then the Muslims are to fight against them. With this type of Jihad the Kuffar who plot against the Muslims are repelled and their hearts are filled with fear, so that they do not succeed in their plans.

The offensive Jihad is Fardh Kifayah, the purpose of which is to ensure the Kuffar remain terrorised and away from mischief, thereby, allowing the message of Islam to be conveyed without any obstructions.

If one group of Muslims fulfil this obligation then it will be sufficient on behalf of all Muslims, but if there are no Muslims fulfilling this obligation then everyone is considered sinful.

It is stated in Fatawa Shami: It is required of the Imam (leader) of the Muslims to dispatch the army routinely once or twice a year towards the Kufr countries. It is also the duty of the Muslim public to assist the Imam in this noble cause. If the Imam does not send an army, then he will considered sinful.

The majority of Jihad undertaken at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) was within the category of offensive Jihad.

The Quran has called upon the Muslims to undertake the offensive Jihad and when this obligation is satisfactorily fulfilled there would be no apparent need for the defensive Jihad.

When Muslims neglect this important obligation then they are subjected to the defensive Jihad and this has become, with regret, widely common in our time.


http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3099341 - 09/06/04 04:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Are you muslim? Your screen name is something that muslims called America once. Also Jews are referred to as Satan by some Muslims including a Bangladeshi woman who works at the quicky mart and eats cigarettes.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: question_for_joo]
    #3099358 - 09/06/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

My parents made me go to a Christian church a long time ago. I was never a Muslim. I'm agnostic. From what I can figure out Great Satan means big bad genie (jinn). Muslims don't believe in fallen angels. Its an English translation of the grunts and obcenities spoken by Muslims.


Edited by Great_Satan (09/06/04 04:20 PM)


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Offlinethieverycorp
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3099378 - 09/06/04 04:25 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

she eats cigarettes? wow


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Invisibleretread
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3099391 - 09/06/04 04:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Are the majority of Muslims carrying out terrorist attacks?




I think that you missed my point in creating this thread. The terms "moderate" and "Radical" are applied usually based as a percentage. If the vast majority of a group of people belive "X" then they are "moderate", if the minority believes "Y", they are "radical" or "extreme". The point I was trying to make is that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide believe that suicide bombing is a valid way to get your grievances listened to, and in so doing, meet some hot virgins in Heaven.
Quote:


No. Many of the mainstream Muslims have been victims of extremist Muslim attacks. Mainstream Islam does tend to be rather socially conservative, but most do not want to be terrorists.




What makes you call the peaceful side of Islam "Mainstream"? Do you think that if every Muslim were polled worldwide, the majority of them would be peaceful with an interpretation of Islam that doesn't support or condone terrorist attacks? I can assure you that most Mid-East Muslims won't feel this way.
Quote:


Now, as far as supporting terrorism, that's kind of a sticky issue. Many of them, especially in Palestine, see it as their only real weapon against a much more heavily armed enemy. I've talked to some Palestinians who say they have no problem with it as long as they only go after military targets.




So even in your opinion, the majority of people in Palestine support terroristic activities? When they are telling you "military targets", they are speaking in a kind of code. Since every male in Israel is part of the IDF, killing or attacking any group where their might be males could be considered a military target. A disco filled with young males? Well, thats like attacking a bar where off-duty Marines go, it's a "military target" to them. No?
Quote:


Then there's Bin Laden. Many people in the Muslim world, particularly the more conservative parts, look up to him as a hero for standing up to their percieved oppressor, America, even if they don't agree with all his ideology.




So the vast majority of the Muslim world supports the activities and beliefs of bin-Laden? Why don't you call them "mainstream" then, and those that are against him as the "radicals"?
Quote:


Secular Islam is common in many populated urban areas throughout the Muslim world. Anyway, you have to understand that this issue isn't black and white. There are many shades of grey.



Sure, but on the issue of semantics. If the MAJORITY of a group believe something, wouldn't you call them "mainstream" rather than "radical"? Do you see now why I believe that the "mainstream" label doesnt' reflect the true opinion of the majority of Muslims, rather it reflects how we WANT reality to be? We want to believe that this RoP? is just that, a religion of peace, when in fact, most of it's practitioners were happy on 9/11/01 that America got sucker-punched. Why muddy the water calling them "radical"? It's true that people that believe this are MAINSTREAM, not radicals.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: retread]
    #3099432 - 09/06/04 04:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

retread said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Are the majority of Muslims carrying out terrorist attacks?




I think that you missed my point in creating this thread. The terms "moderate" and "Radical" are applied usually based as a percentage. If the vast majority of a group of people belive "X" then they are "moderate", if the minority believes "Y", they are "radical" or "extreme". The point I was trying to make is that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide believe that suicide bombing is a valid way to get your grievances listened to, and in so doing, meet some hot virgins in Heaven.



I'd like to see some statistics on this. I believe that this is mostly just a vocal minority rather than the majority, but I could be wrong.

Quote:

Quote:


No. Many of the mainstream Muslims have been victims of extremist Muslim attacks. Mainstream Islam does tend to be rather socially conservative, but most do not want to be terrorists.




What makes you call the peaceful side of Islam "Mainstream"? Do you think that if every Muslim were polled worldwide, the majority of them would be peaceful with an interpretation of Islam that doesn't support or condone terrorist attacks? I can assure you that most Mid-East Muslims won't feel this way.



"Peaceful" is relative. I think the number of Muslim pacifists is probably similar to the number of Christians pacifists. As far as condoning terrorist attacks, I think it depends on which attacks. Many attacks occur within Muslim countries, and I'm fairly sure that most Muslims would condemn such actions. It also depends on how you define terrorism. Remember that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Many of the founding fathers of the United States could be considered terrorists.

Quote:

Quote:


Now, as far as supporting terrorism, that's kind of a sticky issue. Many of them, especially in Palestine, see it as their only real weapon against a much more heavily armed enemy. I've talked to some Palestinians who say they have no problem with it as long as they only go after military targets.




So even in your opinion, the majority of people in Palestine support terroristic activities? When they are telling you "military targets", they are speaking in a kind of code. Since every male in Israel is part of the IDF, killing or attacking any group where their might be males could be considered a military target. A disco filled with young males? Well, thats like attacking a bar where off-duty Marines go, it's a "military target" to them. No?



How can you presume that some people who I talked to and you never met were using some kind of code? I'm aware of what you're saying, but they were specifically referring to an incident in which a female suicide bomber attacked some Israeli soldiers on duty.

Quote:

Quote:


Then there's Bin Laden. Many people in the Muslim world, particularly the more conservative parts, look up to him as a hero for standing up to their percieved oppressor, America, even if they don't agree with all his ideology.




So the vast majority of the Muslim world supports the activities and beliefs of bin-Laden? Why don't you call them "mainstream" then, and those that are against him as the "radicals"?



Show me where I said "the vast majority."

Quote:

Quote:


Secular Islam is common in many populated urban areas throughout the Muslim world. Anyway, you have to understand that this issue isn't black and white. There are many shades of grey.



Sure, but on the issue of semantics. If the MAJORITY of a group believe something, wouldn't you call them "mainstream" rather than "radical"? Do you see now why I believe that the "mainstream" label doesnt' reflect the true opinion of the majority of Muslims, rather it reflects how we WANT reality to be? We want to believe that this RoP? is just that, a religion of peace, when in fact, most of it's practitioners were happy on 9/11/01 that America got sucker-punched. Why muddy the water calling them "radical"? It's true that people that believe this are MAINSTREAM, not radicals.



You claim that the majority believes these things. I want to see some evidence of this.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleretread
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Re: What is "mainstream Islam"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3099529 - 09/06/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I'd like to see some statistics on this. I believe that this is mostly just a vocal minority rather than the majority, but I could be wrong.




First I think I need to make a clarification. When I say "radical Islam", I include the Islamicists that believe that women are objects and other issues that Westerners consider 'extreme'. They might not be supportive of terrorism, per se, but they support and condone the belief structure that foments terrorist activity.

Do you think that the approx 17 million people living in Saudi Arabia that are forced to accept Wahhabism are "mainstream" or "radical"? What about those in Iran? Iraq?
Quote:


"Peaceful" is relative. I think the number of Muslim pacifists is probably similar to the number of Christians pacifists. As far as condoning terrorist attacks, I think it depends on which attacks. Many attacks occur within Muslim countries, and I'm fairly sure that most Muslims would condemn such actions. It also depends on how you define terrorism. Remember that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Many of the founding fathers of the United States could be considered terrorists.




If you are talking about one attack, we could call them Mufloogies if you wanted to. When I say "terrorists" that perpetrated attacks, it's clear who I'm referring to. The terrorist/freedom fighter concern is exactly what I'm talking about. If the majority of Muslims see the 9/11 hijackers/terrorists as "freedom fighters", then what is now considered "radical" Islam is really the popular, mainstream version of Islam. If you want to call them freedom fighters, then that implicitly means that you are supporting their activities. If the majority of Muslims believe that suicide bombers in Palestine/Israel are "freedom fighters" doing Gods work, then they are supportive of
what I call terrorism.
Quote:


How can you presume that some people who I talked to and you never met were using some kind of code? I'm aware of what you're saying, but they were specifically referring to an incident in which a female suicide bomber attacked some Israeli soldiers on duty.




If you'd like me to search this forum, I could find what Zahid has said about it. I researched this issue before I brought it up. Even he said that , in the eyes of the Paletineans, all Israelies are suitable targets due to compulsory military service.
Quote:


Show me where I said "the vast majority."




Do you think that the majority of the Arab/Muslim nations see bin-Laden as a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter"?
Quote:


You claim that the majority believes these things. I want to see some evidence of this.



http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29849

Saudi Arabian officals state that 9/11 was probably caused by Zionist agents.

If you'd like to see some massive poll that I conducted of all Muslims, you won't find it. If you are able to use logic and extrapolate what people in nations that danced in the streets on 9/11 feel about us, go ahead.

Do YOU think that the majority of the Muslim world sees bin-Laden as a infidel terrorist, going against the word of Mohammed, or do you think that they see him as a freedom fighter, fighting against the Zionist and infidels?


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