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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3060484 -

Screw sneaking back in. Come in through the front door and say
"I AM here"


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3060489 -

How was the weather outside the forest?


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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: deff]
    #3060493 -

The front door's hallway is way too long to walk


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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: deff]
    #3060507 -

I like sneaking...

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3060511 -

  :lol:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3060534 -

"Our death is waiting and this very act we're performing now may well be our last battle on earth," he replied in a solemn voice. "I call it a battle because it is a struggle. Most people move from act to act without any struggle or thought. A hunter, on the contrary, assesses every act; and since he has an intimate knowledge of his death, he proceeds judiciously, as if every act were his last battle."


I know Swami...another quote...

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060657 -

Maybe it is our growth as a species, as individuals, together.

Are you referring to mysticism in this regard of having some outside/inside revelation of christ conciousness?

Are you implying that someone else could have possibly toyed with religous manuscripts into setting off a chain of events that would cause a "false" prophet to arise?

Maybe its a war of words...

Mysticism: <link


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What?

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3060686 -

a

Edited by matt (08/31/07 06:11 PM)

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3061232 -

Interesting thread.... definitely something to think on.... :laugh:

I think I might know what you are getting at.  The idea of some mystics thousands of years ago starting to cause happenings to direct our eyes in certain directions to gain certain knowledge and experience in order to guide and ensure our evoultion is rather potent stuff. :shocked:

This all revolves around bringing awareness about someone. A person who is very perceptive of the nature of our situation and understanding of the mechanics of the inner workings going on could take the current moment and imagine what lays ahead, taking it one step at a time and mapping out all the possibillites at every turn, and using reason and judgement to determine which paths are more likely, could then plot out a set of actions that could then change that path, however intended by that person.

I don't see it as being all that far-fetched. Parents (consciously or unconsciously) work with this all the time. Parents guide an object (their child) that is capable of directing awareness and of conscious thought to come to certain realizations, to become aware of certain things. Parents tend not to like sources which bring a "negative influence" because an influence, well, has an influence (:grin:) on their child's actions.

Its a mesh network of near limitless variables that are all interacting in every moment, and each one changing because of those interactions. We are a complex chain reaction playing out real-time, and because some of us have the ability to think, recognize patterns, etc, we have a great role in.... getting this thing wherever it is going..... :confused:

If someone is in a bad mood, and you recognize this, you can consciously choose a set of actions in order to try and cheer them up. We can teach each other. We can point our fingers at something and bring another person to perceive what it is we were motioning towards. When someone dies, a common occurence is a close friend realizing that life isn't so permanent, that the sense of security these patterns we set ourselves in is false and blinding, that life is simply what you get from it. An external occurence brought someone to a different perspective, provoked a new thought.

So definitely, I can see a group of people orchestrating future events in order to bring about certain situations. Everyone does it. It really just depends on how big a scale we are talking about. :lol:

This is what makes shock have so much value. It forces people to pay attention to something, and it erodes some barriers. It is entirely possible to provoke for an intended response, or a chain of responses. Its manipulation, but that word implies a negative when it is alltogether neutral... education is manipulation as well.

Perhaps we are all being manipulated so much, with most not even realizing it, and the intensity of the manipulation contionously increasing because we really do need to realize the value of this thing called life and being aware, and what freedom is... duality was added to Heaven in order to become aware of the whole..... reminds me of the Married With Children song, "Love and marriage, love and marriage, you can't have one without the other", if you'll excuse the strange reference. :smirk: How does one know the value of going around with an undamaged, unmolested face until one day they get punched right in the skull?  :evil:

So, I propose to you, elect Kerrey if you want to continue on with the unaware, day-to-day grind that we of the flock called life, but elect Bush again if you want to have every right we have taken away so that we can appreciate those rights. Sort of a weird twist.... I susposse the better thing to do would be to just go out there and promote awareness and allow us to make the shift without so much struggle, which will only delay us and possibly stamp us out entirely....  :laugh:

But ja, sorry for the ramble... its been awhile, had to catch up. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3061301 -

Huehuecoytl:"The struggle for freedom starts at birth, and it should end only at death...

..."and it should end only at death..." 

Although, I do believe that upon death  you shall be more free than you are now,  I am not convinced that the real  struggle will be over once the physical body dies.
I also believe that THAT struggle began long before physical birth events were possible.

This life is the now physically visible part of that struggle; a part that has slowed down...  It is a resting point; a place to regroup. Thanks to the slowing effects of aging, now is the time to take advantage and enjoy the scenery.




deff: "We came from pure freedom.

I tend to agree that we came from 'pure freedom' +/- ultimate boundaries.


... yet our continuing complication of ideas and matter is what's preventing us from returning home.

I do not believe that we are deeply that stupid.  I do not think that we'd really prevent ourselves from returning home...

Since, on a physical level, we are easily seen, I believe that our ignorance is set in place as to properly hide us within a vast medium of expanding reality. It does not matter, so much, relatively speaking, what happens to the body, for it is only an anchor. Most of the time, what happens to the anchor does not sink the ship. It's another safety feature.

And as for an increased security policy...  If, on a physical universal scale, we could be considered physical source points due to our extreme smallness, then as aging unfolds, and the medium expands in proportion, the probability of each source point being found decreases in comparison.

That means, the longer we remain here (provided we don't end it too fast because we have become stir crazy), the more hidden we become; and so, the safer we are.

In theory, that is a rather secure insurance policy.






For now, I will leave you with an interesting comparison...


This thought came to me as I was observing Canadian Geese grazing by the riverbank..


As an entire group, most of them feed; while some, have their heads popped up and act as lookouts.  The lookouts, then begin to feed, and some of the feeders' role turns to the role of lookout.


Suppose, for this analogy, that there existed, the possibility for the mind to act as a feeder (upon the reality) and as a lookout (for we do 'look out' using our minds). 

Could it be possible, that those minds 'looking out' are in fact perceiving something incomming?
Could it be, that the incomming is announcing its passby?
Could 'false prophets' simply be playing the role of information transmitters?

Could we be like Canadian Geese? ...Waiting for the right moment to fly?



:shocked:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3061468 -

If you agree that we came from pure freedom, then what's the illusionary boundary(s) holding us in this materialistic society?

We are all free right now, close your eyes and see. It is this programming, us being deceived into believing that only consensus reality is real whereas internal states and non-physical states are purely 'imagination' and are looked down upon. We can't spend our lives "dreaming" they say...

And so we believe thatour life ends at death, that there is nothing outside of the accepted society, and that our life must be a mundane cycle of gaining and spending money. These are the complications I speak of, and they for sure are hindering many people's personal development, while at the same time making it seem like personal development consists of no more than education, work, and family.

Every night when we fall alseep, we enter pure freedom once again. Well we don't enter it, but rather the illusions of non-freedom fade away into the bliss of self perfection. Yet every morning we awake oblivious to the spiritual state we've been in, ready yet again to continue our mundane routine in hope for pleasure. We desire so much, that when we don't get it all, we "suffer". not true suffering, if such a thing exists (it doesn't :wink:), but self manifested suffering that can easily be looked past and it's illusionary existence can be ended.

That's what I meant. Sorry for the confuzzle.


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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3063326 -

What idols do you speak of?

I think some people worship starbucks, levis, corporate logos to satisfy their life.

Sure some of them go to church, a lot of people go. How many people do you hear about who call themselves christians yet they think they can commit small sins, and expect to be forgiven? That no matter what they do, they are not responsible for what happens?

I get this same perception from a lot of people where i live.

I think that blinldly believing in something you dont know is just as much worshipping an idol than anything. SHouldnt the truth be the goal, and not just comfort?

IF one wanted to live their life to the highest truth, why would they restrict themselves to the boundaries and limitations of a religious doctrine which limits the mind?

Thats my take on it anyway, i do not worship idols, and i do not consider myself a christian.

Im not going to make my life a living hell because i cant fit into the mold a religion wants me to.

If god can forgive a priest ordained by the church as a servant of god for molesting a child, why would he send someone to hell who doesnt agree with religous beuracratic bullshit?

Deyimian: What do you mean by information transmitters? What are they transmitting? And why would you link this to False prophets?

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3063711 -

"I am not convinced that the real struggle will be over once the physical body dies."

You got anything to back this up? I didn't address the afterlife because it is the big unknown...it is probably good to proceed as if there were no afterlife.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3063781 -

deff: "If you agree that we came from pure freedom, then what's the illusionary boundary(s) holding us in this materialistic society?


This 'illusionary boundary' you refer to, which appears to separate your mind from the world you see around you begins at the physical brain, from a 'looking out into the world perspective'.  Thanks to it [ the brain], many things are filtered for your own good. At this stage, I think that perceiving too much information would be potentially counter productive. You may be inclined to ask why, but that would be off topic to this thread, and so I shall keep that response to myself for the time being; however, I do intend to share when I feel the time is right to do so.


The term illusion, I believe, is false. You simply do not see all of it; yet it is there in its fullness. Isn't that an illusion then, you might query? Well, it's more a physical phenomenon rather than an illusionnal one.


Consider the following:

You can never see 100% of what is there all at once.  You don't believe me? Look at any physical thing from any angle (loophole..as long as it isn't seethrough)... There is always a point at which you can see no further around; and so you perceive the front, back, sides from different vantage points.  Each vantage point is different from the next.  By taking different stances, relative to the subject of interest, you can piece each vantage point together like a puzzle and get a rough estimate, but never can you detect it all.


So your brain is used to working with less than optimal vantage points, while at the same time, it filters. It is not illusion, but rather, ignorance, which is at play here.



An interesting concept arises.  If everyone has different vantage points, then the sharing of them only makes sense, if getting a more complete picture of the puzzle is your motive force.


I personally try as hard as I can to integrate as many vantage points as possible to get a better picture.  For example: To me, as the timeline of History has unfolded, and various writings were written  at different moments ( I'm refering to concepts, in no particular order, such as the Muslim faith, Buddhism, Christianity and the like ), neither of those perspectives are the only vantage points.  Each one is like a different chapter to something more complex. If you try to filter out the confusing details and get down to the fundamentals, a real interesting picture begins to take form.


But I digress.. And I said I wasn't going to, right?



We are all free right now, close your eyes and see.

When you close you eyes, you simply overlap into a sanctuary zone. You cannot escape the anchor qualities of your body. Fortunately, you are here until the moment that you are to move. You are not trully as free as you'd like to think.


And so we believe thatour life ends at death

The timeline I consider is much more extended, and what lies outside of the boundary we know as physical life is more complex. That makes everything around us, from a broad scale perspective, rather trivial.

But hey..  You are supposed to make the most of this rest stop called life, right?  You know, there is nothing wrong with acquiring some material things and to have fun. Only the frictionnal forces of sloth prevent one from living life to the fullest. Its usually the ones who do little who rationnalize that the ones who do have some neat toys are the shallow materialist freaks... But that is not always the case. It's all about having a good time. Live it up while you can!





Zeor71: "Deyimian: What do you mean by information transmitters? What are they transmitting? And why would you link this to False prophets?"


They are transmitting....  information... 


I link this to the concept of false prophets because I am clearing their name of possible riddicule and finger pointing, with the following implication, synonymous to the Canada geese illustration previously mentionned: acting as 'lookouts', they are re-inforcing a potential presence, which does not necessarilly have to be as complex as a 'god concept'. They are expressing information, as they perceive it, from a more complex region known as imagination.


Suppose, in a speculative manner, that we are not alone. Could, perchance, the possibility exist that once a certain presence comes to close proximity of where our minds are located, that someone looking out will express that presence? And since the frequency of the occurance of 'false prophets' varies, as does the story, would it, then, be reasonable to consider that there are several rather than just one of these presences, and that they move around, from close proximity to further distances away?


This would be more like several shepherds working as a team to watch their large flock.




I am not refering to a multitude of gods, but rather, the strong presence of guardians.





:scrambled:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3063980 -

Right, but this idea hinges on context . You would not have this situation if lets say, someone within the church came out to say "blah blah blah" im the prophet. But truely this person is a liar, they have done many bad things etc. etc. their information is only to stir the public and cause fear and you know the rest...

Their name cant be cleared from their actions.

In the context of a holy prophet, would they not be more "selfless"? their true nature shown by their deeds?

Great many people claim to have done great things, but alas they have not. The greatest thing they have done is lied to a large group of people, to falsely witness the spirit of "god" or "christ conciousness" in order to gain something.

How are we to judge who is and who is not a false prophet, or to therefore suppose what one is... Because isnt it just in this conciousness alone that such a thing could be comprehended?

How can we conjecture what it is without having even definately proved such a thing exists? We have only merely touched on the idea.


by claiming someone is a false prophet, you are pointing your finger at them, you are making an accusation... right?


when you speak of imagination, i think that is kind of interesting how in the definition of mysticism, is "vague, groundless speculation". Think of all those thoughts floating in your mind... to come to a certain point, a thought.

we share thoughts alike, thats how i can communicate here with you, because you understand this, and it is reinforced by my explanation of it...

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3065412 -

I have this tag "Messiah" because everyone labeled a messiah was as much flesh and blood compared to us.

I try to learn from great people that were once labeled a messiah or still are.

It is said to see so many people waist there time here instead of using it for the betterment for mankind that will later benefit them even more when they die.

I am not saying I am the "messiah" and i am not saying I am a "prophet", my point is that we all have the same opportunity and potential. WE ARE ALL EQUAL EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE DIFFERENT UPRISINGS and for some of these people they were born into a horrible world. On my next life and other future lives I do not want this world to be horrible.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Swami]
    #3065563 -

Swami said:
An even more important question: has there ever been a true prophet? As no one has been able to make any future specific predictions that have come to pass; I contend that all prophets are false.



Except for you of course!


--------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone



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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Philanthropist]
    #3065805 -

The "messiah" can only point a way. It is up to the individual whether or not that path is worthy.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3066406 -

allo D!  glad to see you are here again stirring shit up :wink:

i think the question was already brought up, but how many of these people we call prophets now called themselves prophets while they were alive?

it's important to look at  when the idea of prophets came about. 

did the ancient greeks have these ideas?

how about the egyptians?

the mayans?

and the many tribes in africa...what about them?

then we should look at  when drugs were used...at that's a toughy, since drugs have been used for thousands of years..but has the idea of prophets been around that long?

then we have to look at what type of drugs are used. 

and sure, there was opium

but there's also ololiuqui, kratom, yopo seeds, and tons of other "drugs" that can or have been used. 

finally, we must look at the relevance of a "prophets" ideas.  is that not how we judge their ability, by the relevance of ideas? 

I never agreed with the idea that certain people were meant to act as a catalyst for consciousness, that some were "meant" to or "chosen" to be a prophet. it brings about a "holier than thou" attitude that has come with most organized religions/cults.  That isn't to say though that certain people haven't been a catalyst, because in my mind, we are all that catalyst, everyone who you come into contact with you, for better or worse/ has an effect on you.  no matter how small, it's apart of the experience.

jsut like the words I have read on this board, the the words you are reading now, cause me to think, to reflect, to respond, it's presenting change.

it is up to you, the viewer to decide whether that change is relevant.  to where it applies to you!  there's 6 plus billion poeple in this world, think about how you would be as a person if you encounted just 10 percent (600 million) of those people in your lifetime.  how different of a person would you be?

we can measure when the geese will fly, but it up to you to decide to try.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3066462 -

These limitations of freedom that you perceive are the illusions I speak of. I don't believe we are free in the manner you probably think I do, as I do not accept the idea of free will whatsoever. What I mean by freedom rather is the opposite of what people mean by a lack of freedom. By conjuring up these limitations, you have created them freely out of your own infinitely free state of awareness. You are but void filling the body you perceive to be your own. When you close off all senses, there are no perceived boundaries, and therefore no limitations of perceptual freedom (that is, the highest degree of freedom that can exist within this framework of cause and effect).

If you were in someone else's body (including their brain), you would behave 100% identical to them in every way. So what's the difference between the true you-self and the tru them-self? Nothing, they are one and the none.


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