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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Messiahs and False Prophets
    #3057118 - 08/27/04 09:28 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Putting attention seekers aside for a moment, I would like to have a serious discussion, if you will, about Messiahs and false Prophets.

I have a few things going past my mind at the moment..  Perhaps my Forum friends can help me shed some light, and aid me to see if there is actually something in our vicinity; else, nevermind, for it is nothing..



It has been written, that, in the future, there shall be the emergence of those claiming to be Messiahs and Prophets.




Let us first begin the discussion with a few questions:


Judging by the emergence of so many who make such claims,  is THIS the future that has been refered to in the past?

How can someone be mistaking?

Is there a purpose, or function, to being a false prophet? ..Or is it simply all a delusion manifested by each individual making such claims?

Have 'seeds been planted' by past writers to ensure that Messiahs and false Prophets emerge in the future?

If so... Could it be a safety feature?




I have spoken to some within the last decade who have indicated something very interesting to me...



Could the emergence of Messiahs and False Prophets be  drug induced ?

Is THAT [ - among the reason of causing sloth - ], perhaps why it is written that drugs are not to be taken?


Since people don't listen, was the creation and anticipation of Messiahs and false Prophets purposely orchestrated?



Is there a reason for that?




:eyeball: :eyeball:



:kodama:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflineZoso_UK
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057141 - 08/27/04 09:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There have been 'messiahs' and false prophets around for as long as there has been religion. This time period in the history of man is no different in that respect. Around the time of Jesus, for instance, hundreds of people were claiming to be the Messiah.... including him of course :P


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057223 - 08/27/04 10:32 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

An even more important question: has there ever been a true prophet? As no one has been able to make any future specific predictions that have come to pass; I contend that all prophets are false.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinecleaner
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057248 - 08/27/04 10:45 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Deiymiyan said:
Judging by the emergence of so many who make such claims........








come again?

i haven't seen 'many'  :confused:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057448 - 08/27/04 11:51 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

In a way, we all act like messiahs and prophets. Look at how humans predict the future of technology, global ecomonics, international relationships and current affairs?

We all have our own predictions of what we beleive will or will not come to pass in the future, even you swami. You tell us what will not happen in the future. Isn't that the same thing? If a lot of your predictions have come to pass, then wouldn't you be a true prophet of what is not to be?

It's not a bad thing. We always reserve the right to beleive or not to beleive in others predictions and prophecies, even our own.

Of course, most of us don't label ourselves prophets or messiahs. Is that the only real difference? Or does the difference lie in the weight we give to the source of the prediction, be it our own inner knowing, past cycles, scientific probability, or it coming from a higher external source? And, are those really such different sources?


Is it something natural and normal for all of us to do to varying degrees as a way of plotting our own courses and giving scope to the future?

Just looking to offer up another perspective on this topic that may ease judgments and expand upon thought full considerations and further discussion.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/27/04 11:53 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057466 - 08/27/04 11:57 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I think it was Nostro who said that the greatest wish of a prophet is that his doom and gloom ones will NOT come to pass which is why he/she gives them to alter course.

If one giving prophecy does alter the course of events as a result of motivating change in action, does he now become a false prophet? What if he shared it with no one and it did come to pass?
Then he would be a true prophet, but who would even know he was?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3057557 - 08/27/04 12:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We all have our own predictions of what we beleive will or will not come to pass in the future, even you swami. You tell us what will not happen in the future. Isn't that the same thing? If a lot of your predictions have come to pass, then wouldn't you be a true prophet of what is not to be?

Many of my "predictions" have come to pass, but there is nothing prophetic in that. Understanding human dynamics and studying historical patterns and applying that knowledge is quite different than predicting a SPECIFIC or pattern-breaking event.

Generic Pattern Prediction: A commercial flight will crash next year in the USA.

Prophecy: Delta Airlines Flight 191 out of Dallas will crash on May 19, 2005 after being hit by lightning.

As to stating what is not to be; that is even easier. In 2012 (as in every year) there will be trillions of human "events". Of these, there will be tens of thousands important to US citizens. Of these, a few dozen will be chosen to support the 2012 "changes" by proponents; however, there will be no end of history, nor mass spiritual changes. Debunking a nonsensical prophecy, does not make me a prophet.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3057593 - 08/27/04 12:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"It has been written, that, in the future, there shall be the emergence of those claiming to be Messiahs and Prophets."

Lots of stuff has been written.. don't take these books too seriously dude. But I'll play along....

"Is there a purpose, or function, to being a false prophet?" I would think false prophets wouldn't realize that they were FALSE prophets... It is Satan's work!

"Have 'seeds been planted' by past writers to ensure that Messiahs and false Prophets emerge in the future? If so... Could it be a safety feature?"

I don't understand what you mean by safety feature..

"Could the emergence of Messiahs and False Prophets be drug induced ?"

Certainly some of them are drug-induced..... the others require no extra substances to become deluded

"Since people don't listen, was the creation and anticipation of Messiahs and false Prophets purposely orchestrated? Is there a reason for that?"

Well if it was on purpose, then there is probably a reason..

I'm sure the false prophets were anticipated.. They help test people's faith.

Priest: Come with me! I will show you the path of God!
Psycho: No; come with ME! I will show you the path of God, for I AM God and will prove it to you if you come to my house and drink this tea with me. Come on I've got an XBOX...
Me: OK Psycho let's go man.. what games do you have fo- HEY PRIEST DON'T TOUCH ME! FUCK OFF DUDE!"

I have failed a test of God at this point, running off with a false prophet. My faith was weak, and hopefully the church will welcome me back (with only one arm because that psycho "sacrificed" my right!) with open arms and I will have learned to not stray from the path of light.

I'm not religious, but you're talking in religious terms so I figured I would (mostly).


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Swami]
    #3057638 - 08/27/04 12:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I understand that you are debunking the whole idea of prophecy and messiahs be them true or false.

For the record, I see 2012 the way you do.

I beleive, the original poster was looking to gain an understanding of how do we know who are the real prophets and messiahs of the modern age and who are the false ones.

I wrote what I did to open consideration to the idea that there is no reasonable measure to determine this, if prophecy itself is indeed a true gift of a visionary.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Swami]
    #3057700 - 08/27/04 12:55 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
An even more important question: has there ever been a true prophet? As no one has been able to make any future specific predictions that have come to pass; I contend that all prophets are false.




Swami makes a good point.

Also, I'd like to think that if someone is a prophet or saviour or the like, that he could perform special magic tricks, not just talk about them. If he talks the talk but can't walk the walk, he's false.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineMuppet
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3059532 - 08/27/04 09:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I believe these 'false prophets' that were written about many moons ago where not actually individuals that exahlt themselves up to supernatural hights, but rather - religious groups and organizations that take on the role of 'god' by claiming that the only way a person can be saved is by believing in what they believe in, and living their life in accordance with the rules and restrictions put forth by these various different organizations



..........

Thus Spake Muppet


--------------------


:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3059872 - 08/27/04 10:52 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

a


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:12 PM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060075 - 08/27/04 11:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I'd like to begin with definitions, that I came accross on an online dictionary, to aid this discussion along..  the part in italics shall be commentary that I'll add lib.


Messiah:  1  The anticipated savior of the Jews. This part is rather interesting in my mind.. As history goes, up to present times, are/were the Jews really in need to be saved at any point?... They sure were...  Weren't they...  Where was their savior less than a century ago? However, I contend ( thanx Swami for helping me expand my vocabulary ) that the Jews are relatively free from danger at this moment 

                2  One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator. A general sort of definition in my opinion; this could be reflected with quite a large sample size from our present waaaay back into the past

     
Prophet:    1  A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed. I don't have much to say about this except the reference of 'a god' and not GOD was used... Perhaps that could mean something; perhaps not.

                          2  A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression. This one's pretty neat..  In this definition, my understanding is that there is a lack of divine intervention here

                          3  A predictor; a soothsayer. This here, is the part refering to predictions..

                          4  The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause. This, to me, appears to be a rather 'human-esque' kind of trait...






Zoso_UK: "Around the time of Jesus, for instance, hundreds of people were claiming to be the Messiah....

Hopefully I don't step too hard on any toes here, but, wasn't 'opium' use as rampant then as it is now?
As for Jesus...  *whew* ( I may end up sweating some bullets for this one )..  I contend that He was not a stranger in that department.



Swami:"As no one has been able to make any future specific predictions that have come to pass..."

Especially, relative to our present, I'm right there with ya!  I do not have much faith in the legitimacy of  those who make such claims.

Even in many writings, there  is the indication of 'trends' and 'patterns', rather than specifics.

Could it mean, then, that the anticipation of a 'fortune-teller' is an anticipation in vain?



Cleaner, you haven't seen 'many'?  Would you agree, then, that there are/ were certainly more than a 'few'?



gettinjiggywithit:"Is it something natural and normal for all of us to do to varying degrees as a way of plotting our own courses and giving scope to the future?

THAT is a really interesting point!  I would be inclined to say 'yes'..  In that case, if everyone has a personnal agenda, making friends would be a wise common denominator to that equation...  An important concept, especially when one's agenda does not immediately and properly synchronize with another's.



Swami:"...the 2012 "changes" ... There will be no end of history...

I expect no anti-climactic appocalypse either.



Strumpling:"I don't understand what you mean by safety feature..

Heeeeyyy Strumpling!  Haven't talked to you in a while!

Oh.. Safety feature? 

How about this, among other potential possibilities:  For example...  'Decoys'.    Remember what happened one of the previous times? Surely, the art of stealth and misdirection is not a limited characteristic.



Frog: "I'd like to think that if someone is a prophet or saviour or the like, that he could perform special magic tricks... If he talks the talk but can't walk the walk, he's false."

Oooooh!  You must be looking for that "Clown"...  What was his name?  "IT"?

The magician's corner is 'next door'..


It is interesting to note how so many have pre-conceived notions of how things aught  to be.. 

Have you not noticed, however, that things never unfold exactly as you'd like? (Frog,  I am not refering to YOU in a direct manner.)



Muppet: "I believe these 'false prophets' that were written about many moons ago where not actually individuals that exahlt themselves up to supernatural hights..."

Right! So..  could they have, then, been the 'pawns of this chess game'?



mattzdope:"I've heard some crazy examples. Such as what if Jesus was someone from the future that came back through time. Who knows what lies in store in the future, technology wise.

Right now if I could go back in time to the cave-man era I could be a prophet/messiah and perform miracles. Any modern technology would be a miracle to them. Ex. I could make a fire appear in my hands. FEAR THE WRATH OF THE ALMIGHTY. ~shruggs~"


'High-Five" for a very nice point!

..But, I think the cave-men would eat you instead.






OK...  let's see if my commentary sparks any further thought..  This is getting interesting.


:grin:


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060145 - 08/27/04 11:57 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

a


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:12 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060173 - 08/28/04 12:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Deiymiyan asked "could they have been pawns of this chess game?"

ding ding ding ding ding

That's the million dollar question!

:jesus: :jester: :hook: :satan:


:popcorn:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3060216 - 08/28/04 12:14 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

History would be changing before our eyes, and things would disappear and appear.. Any ideas on this??


Well... Written  History does somewhat change over the years; right under our noses...  Seen any original, unmisinterpreted text lately?

The further back you go, the harder it is to come by.



As for things appearing and disappearing... ~shrug~  I dunno...  I still think that if you appeared in front of the cave men that you'd disappear rather fast!  Your flesh musn't be that tough...  I'll bet they'd consider you a tender delicacy!  :lol:




I did like your point though. Really.


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlinedeff
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060235 - 08/28/04 12:21 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

That's because the evidence of the "past" can only exist in the present. To our present state, there was no preceding state, but rather an illusion of many.


--------------------



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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060241 - 08/28/04 12:24 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

a


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:11 PM)


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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #3060339 - 08/28/04 12:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There is only one true Messiah. It is the self.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Messiahs and False Prophets [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3060347 - 08/28/04 12:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well then there's 6.? billion... :smile:

But yeah - relative to yourself - you are God and his prophets.


--------------------



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