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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: vampirism]
    #3032904 -

Blind?

d33p said:
No, no you're quite wrong my friend. For a war to exist there must be a prolonged state of open conflict between different parties. You see nature is ruled by survival of the fittest. There isn't any of this religious crap of help thy neighbor. Nature is one large state of open conflict. When animals meet, one thing rules their mind: the instinct of survival. This is not the same thing as a war. Niether is animals hunting in packs.

I mean would you call a bar-fight a war? Hell no.



--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3033809 -

Quote:
No, no you're quite wrong my friend. For a war to exist there must be a prolonged state of open conflict between different parties. You see nature is ruled by survival of the fittest. There isn't any of this religious crap of help thy neighbor. Nature is one large state of open conflict. When animals meet, one thing rules their mind: the instinct of survival. This is not the same thing as a war. Niether is animals hunting in packs.



Let's see.
For a war to exist there must be a prolonged state of open conflict between different parties.
Nature is one large state of open conflict.

A "party" is just a group of things that exist together in some sort of community or group. Plenty of those in nature.
Looking at those two quotes, shouldnt you be arguing instead that PEACE is an invention of man's, and that WAR would be the natural state of things?

No really, you should. That's more true than what you're trying to argue.. well, what you're saying you're arguing. It really looks like you actually ARE making the argument for peace being unnatural.


It's the human ability to reason and remember that turns conflict into a long-term large-scale operation that you seem to be picturing. At the root of things, war is just a really big fight as I've said. Animals fight all the time.

Let's take lions.
If a lion sees another lion outside of its pack, it will attack it and chase it off, as it is a threat to their society. If it sees another animal with food, it will take it by force unless the other animal is stronger. If a new male lion takes over a pride, it will kill the offspring of the previous leader.

I think you're going to have to provide some sort of arguments with more substance than "Nu uh! I'm right!", because as it stands that's really all you've come up with.


War is not an invention of man; rather, man is an invention of war.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3033830 -

Surely you know of driver ants and their well planned campaigns ?
Bacterias or viruses an their everlasting struggle for world-dominance ?

I think there are wars on many planes of natural existence and that it is not only a human concept.

That doesn't make a war, driven by human concepts, better in any way. We are the ones, who ought to prevent it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3033842 -

When animals meet, one thing rules their mind: the instinct of survival.

While this is true, it fails to point out that there are MANY cases where animals (and especially insects) use group behavior to increase the survival chances OF THE GROUP. This, by necessity, puts "the group" survival above the individual's survival.

When it gets cold, bees clump themselves together into a ball around the queen and begin to shake their wings and muscles - producing heat. All the bees in the outside layers die from the cold anyway, but as they die they use up their remaining energy to give heat to the rest of the hive. This is just one example of this type of behavior, but it happens in quite a few places throughout nature.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3033859 -

We are the ones, who ought to prevent it.

Exactly! We humans are, after all, supposed to have this rather mystical quality we call "free-choice"...

Humans appear to be alone in the animal kingdom for our ability to chose how we survive. We share many common traits with the rest of life here on Earth, but this single difference creates a large gap that SHOULD be exploited (ie: we should use our "free-choice" to put an end to "survival of the fittest").


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3033901 -

well I must have missed that.

Define prolonged in this case. Wolf packs often have skirmishes over a period of years, and they are certainly not randomnly running into each other and trying to get food.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: entiformatie]
    #3033924 -

i can't beleive I haven't checked out this thread sooner

name calling does nothing to add in discussion at all, and it one of the reasons why it's one of the guidelines on S&P.

this thread at times seems like a philisophical warzone in its own right.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: entiformatie]
    #3034003 -

"Without all these problems in our world, we would have nothing to struggle against. We would put forth no effort. In essence, we would be meaningless. We would be automated nothings floating about a river. But we are given obstacles, and with these obstacles, we are given a chance to define ourselves. We can put forth the effort, and how we do so, against what, for what, that is what we become. That's what seperates me from this computer I'm sitting at."

The city I used to live in seemed like a warzone constantly, and these people have food, shelter and clothing, the bare essentials of life.  we are the creation of our own struggle, not what happens.  what happens is only the result of our creation.  what is wrong??  nothing is, except what our minds deems as wrong and from there in manifests in reality. 

some people have to have more than others, and since we have a monetary system that we all depend on, some have more than others. in fact, the have nots far out weigh the haves, and we are the haves.  and when the ego has something, it'll do most anything to keep it that way.  this includes not having compassion for others and sharing.

how do most humans protect what they have?? they fight

how about getting back what they want?  they fight

both stem from the ego, since both involves the individual.

to give is to let go, and human most certainly don't want to let go.

it is therefore my opinion, that war isn't the yang to our yin as I think war is the result of.

I dunno how you can be happy about it. 

unless I misunderstand you  :laugh:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: psyka]
    #3034032 -

"Overpopulation is fairly recent. In fact, I'm fairly certain its a byproduct of war, famine, conflict, and strife. The reason why China is so overpopulated is because the government took a defense measure against the war on communism and encouraged the Chinese to birth as many children as possible. More people = more soldiers...overpopulation is unnatural"

you bring up some good points...but I wonder, aren't there many factors involving over population.

A little bit of the monetary system can be put there. science has increased its technology in the medical field to increase and enhance our lives. technology in how we live as well.

oppression is also another one as the "haves" will conitnue to keep and take more and morel leaving others with less and less.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: kaiowas]
    #3034086 -

well you have to admit that a very real possibility of apocalypse can make *someone* enjoy life more.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3034109 -

Mushmonkey said:
Let's see.
For a war to exist there must be a prolonged state of open conflict between different parties.
Nature is one large state of open conflict.

A "party" is just a group of things that exist together in some sort of community or group.  Plenty of those in nature.
Looking at those two quotes, shouldnt you be arguing instead that PEACE is an invention of man's, and that WAR would be the natural state of things? Some animals are peaceful by nature and others are more agressive. Peace is an absence of conflict, so it would be hard to ever find  real peace

No really, you should.  That's more true than what you're trying to argue.. well, what you're saying you're arguing.  It really looks like you actually ARE making the argument for peace being unnatural. show me fighting in other places of the universe. Peace is the natural order. With intelligence comes conflict, and possibly war.


It's the human ability to reason and remember that turns conflict into a long-term large-scale operation that you seem to be picturing.  At the root of things, war is just a really big fight as I've said.  Animals fight all the time.  Fighting brought on by insticts is not war

Let's take lions.
If a lion sees another lion outside of its pack, it will attack it and chase it off, as it is a threat to their society.  If it sees another animal with food, it will take it by force unless the other animal is stronger.  If a new male lion takes over a pride, it will kill the offspring of the previous leader.  Survival and instinct, not war

I think you're going to have to provide some sort of arguments with more substance than "Nu uh!  I'm right!", because as it stands that's really all you've come up with. To be frank i really having been shown an actual case where animals engaged in war.


War is not an invention of man; rather, man is an invention of war.  Hey just because it may sound good doesn't mean it means anything :lol:



--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: d33p]
    #3035289 -

Deep, you're just too entrenched in your own comfortable belief that humans are some big, mean evil thing that brought darkness to this beautiful and bright natural word to ever be dislodged. I was starting to get bored arguing with somebody whose only counterpoint is "no your wrong" anyway.

Have fun. This has long ago passed across the point of idiocy, and I refuse to expend any thought on anybody not decent enough to do the same. I'm not checking this thread after this post.


Now. I'm typing very slowly, so please read very slowly, I would hate for you to miss something..

War is a big fight. There is no time constraints to war, nor is there a required number of participants. "War" is just a word that we use to describe an organized fight between two different entities. Some wars are large, some are small, some are long and some are short.

It's all just fighting. Without fighting you don't have a war, you have an argument.

All the causes for all the wars ever can very easily be traced back to a very basal instinct that is present in any animal on this planet.

Food. Sex. Dominance.

As we've got this swelled organ in our skulls, we can reason out that if we go to war for resource X, or for territory X, we will benefit.
We can think and realize that those people over there, that aren't a part of our every day society and aren't very nice anyway, sure seem like they're going to attack us, and maybe we should attack first.
Or maybe they did attack us, and we need to protect ourselves.

We can just make things seem a lot more complicated than that.
I'd offer you to challenge my assertion and find a war that was waged for a reason other than some deep-seated instinct that's grown with our own mental prowess, but I know you won't. You're just throwing back "Nu-uh I'M right!" to any counter-arguments offered, most likely because you realize your argument lacks substance and veracity.

And if you do not think that conflict, fighting, and war has played a large part, perhaps the largest part, in the evolution and development of the human species... well. I would suggest you start reading books, big thick books, non-fiction books, right now.. and don't stop.

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #3035817 -

Quote:
Mushmonkey said:
Deep, you're just too entrenched in your own comfortable belief that humans are some big, mean evil thing that brought darkness to this beautiful and bright natural word to ever be dislodged.  I was starting to get bored arguing with somebody whose only counterpoint is "no your wrong" anyway. Intelligence breeds two things: desire and ability. This is major factor accountable for man's inherent evilness. But i digress, this is not an argument of men nor beast, but one of semantics. I subject which I'm guessing you are not very well versed in.

Have fun.  This has long ago passed across the point of idiocy, and I refuse to expend any thought on anybody not decent enough to do the same.  I'm not checking this thread after this post. If you want to call your remarks idiocy, i'm fine with that.


Now.  I'm typing very slowly, so please read very slowly, I would hate for you to miss something..

War is a big fight.  There is no time constraints to war, nor is there a required number of participants.  "War" is just a word that we use to describe an organized fight between two different entities.  Some wars are large, some are small, some are long and some are short.  War is not just a big fight silly head. I've tried to explain this numerous times, but your thick head must be getting in the way.

It's all just fighting.  Without fighting you don't have a war, you have an argument. Ever heard of the cold war?

All the causes for all the wars ever can very easily be traced back to a very basal instinct that is present in any animal on this planet.  Desire and ability are not instinct but things which come with intelligence.

Food.  Sex.  Dominance.

We can just make things seem a lot more complicated than that.
I'd offer you to challenge my assertion and find a war that was waged for a reason other than some deep-seated instinct that's grown with our own mental prowess, but I know you won't.  You're just throwing back "Nu-uh I'M right!" to any counter-arguments offered, most likely because you realize your argument lacks substance and veracity. Considering you've yet to show me one case of actual war between animals you sure seem cocky and pretentious. World war 1 began due to Franz Ferdinand's very cocky attitute. After his assassination the entente between most European nations caused a relativly small matter to become a world war. Which instinct started this war?

I could also go on to explain the start of the second world war, cold war, korean war, vietnam war, and the second gulf war; but i hope my point stuck already.

And if you do not think that conflict, fighting, and war has played a large part, perhaps the largest part, in the evolution and development of the human species...  well.  I would suggest you start reading books, big thick books, non-fiction books, right now.. and don't stop.  For one i never said that it doesn't. To ssay a blnaket statement like that would be retarded. And considering you've never heard of the cold war i suggest you read a few books. And here i will make my biggest point: If war can just be matter of a pack of wolves fighting another pack of wolves on one occasion then why do we not call a bar fight a war?



Because man i went to a party last night but the band sucked so the party basically ended. Then these two guys started a war. It only lasted for about 30 seconds though. Damn i can't believe i witnessed that war. Now i now why they say war is hell. :lol: :lol: :lol:


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Edited by d33p (08/23/04 01:37 PM)

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Re: I'm glad we have famine war conflict and strife [Re: kaiowas]
    #3039733 -

I'm not suggesting that war is a necessary counterbalance for happiness to exist (which is what most people seem to think I am saying). What I'm trying to say is that it is part of the evolutionary process, that we will create war, and that war will be necessary for us to learn how to come to peace.

A state of perfection is not one in which war exists, but one in which we overcame war, apathy, greed, jealousy, gluttony, etc, through an effort put forth by each and every individual. It's a process that I believe will lead us through evolution. We cannot have a perfect race unless we can all struggle and put forth effort, surpass our own limitations. It is in this struggle that we find our godhood.


--------------------
/opinion
.sean

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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