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Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling
    #29677378 -

I don't know, wave propagation in electric fields in brain fluids are responsible from neuron activation rather than specific brain structures. Or something


Youtube link


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: mush_monkey] * 1
    #29677399 -

wave propagation is part of it
click the brain fart in my sig below. or this https://redgreenvines.github.io/reflex/

the red concentric circles are wave propagation of electric fields when cortical neurons are activated and their dendritic trees light up actvating nearby neurons with highly branched axons. those axon branches end up connecting with all the currently active cortical neurons.

what fires together wires together across the whole brain, enabling both memory formation and perceptive reflexes (memory recall).


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: mush_monkey]
    #29677448 -

A link to the paper cited in the video:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-026-02403-z

The abstract:
Quote:
High-frequency (~90-Hz) ripple oscillations may promote integrative processing in mammalian brains. Co-occurrence of ripple oscillations has been associated with enhanced temporal binding of neural activity between nearby human cortical neurons, but whether co-ripple facilitation of neuronal coupling supports cognitive processing or occurs at greater distances remains unclear. Here we analyze intracranial recordings from patients implanted with microwire electrodes in the hippocampus, amygdala, ventromedial prefrontal cortex, anterior cingulate cortex and pre-supplementary motor area, bilaterally, during a working memory task. We demonstrate that ripple rates increase in all recorded regions during encoding, maintenance and retrieval. Co-occurrence of ripples increases between brain regions, associated with ~30% increases in cross-region co-firing, without decrement over distances up to 220 mm. Cross-regional co-rippling and associated co-firing scale with memory load during maintenance and retrieval. During retrieval, co-ripples promote reinstatement of stimulus-specific, long-distance co-firing patterns observed during encoding, especially during rapid recognition. Co-occurring ripple oscillations thus coordinate long-range, stimulus-specific neural co-firing supporting distributed representations during human cognition.


As with all these kinds of papers, there is no explanation of consciousness itself, only an analysis of the physical mechanisms in the brain that appear to correlate with certain conscious experiences.

Within the first two minutes the guy in the video, Anton, says this:
Quote:
...the brain may actually act like a kind of analog computer, and might even exploit its own physical fields and its electric waves to produce these very specific high-frequency pulses and generate these very unusual voltages inside the brain that seem to coordinate our thoughts, and as a result seem to  generate consciousness...


Well let's stop right there, because you have to have consciousness before you can have thoughts, not the other way around. Where do the thoughts come from, Anton? All we can ascertain here, as in every other study of this kind, is that the brain seems to be involved in the business of processing consciousness. There is no evidence that it generates conscious experience from scratch. In fact, we don't even know that the brain—and the matter it's made of—is not itself fundamentally a mental structure embedded within some kind of "larger" conscious field, processing the experiences occurring in that field for specific purposes in a way rather analogous to, say, how a human's thoughts may process a broad assemblage of mathematical knowledge in order to construct a specific "mental machine" for finding the square root of any whole number.

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast] * 1
    #29677511 -

Anton is not in the room.

however if you explore this phrase phrase further, some cracks appear through which a glimmer of light may escape:

"you have to have consciousness before you can have thoughts"


as a wise caterpillar once asked: "who are you?"




I may say, "are you other than your thoughts?"
by which I mean are you other than your thoughts, feelings, sensations, qualia, and memories...

and if you are not other than your thoughts and feelings and sensations and memories..., then if the body and brain sustain those thoughts ... while conscious or dreaming, consciousness and thought is not exactly a chicken and egg situation, really, since while conscious or dreaming such mental phenomena occur in response to the slightest perceptible changes.

and if that body while sleeping and not dreaming (- i.e. without consciousness -) is also you, well then OK,
you are more than the thoughts, you are also the vessel which may from time to time be unconscious and free of thoughts, feelings sensations, qualia...


At least when unconscious, resting memories are not wiped away, so that afterwards, while in a dream or awake, they can come back to life in the pageantry of consciousness.

so you are more than your resting (sleeping) memories, and more than just a body, and more than just your thoughts (or other mental phenomena); but are you more than all three?

who are you?


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29677561 -

I hope to get back to you on this matter, RGV. Probably not today.

But right now I'll just say that I think we're laboring under different definitions of "consciousness." My definition is perhaps the broader one. I  view consciousness as the substrate (for lack of a better word) in which thoughts are created.

My definition of "thought" is also broad, to include also feelings—rather like the Buddhists do.

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast]
    #29677717 -

do these creations (thoughts) happen in you, to you, by you?
do they happen in dreamless sleep?
do they happen when you dream?
I know they happen when awake
Are we talking about the same thing when we say thoughts?


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #29677880 -

i think it is important to get further with who we are

for that it is important to be open minded and present and kind etc. and do as good as possible


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast]
    #29677927 -

At this point, I would like to add more confusion to the conversation and posit that the substrate you are alluding to (the electric, or other type of, fields that certain molecular arrangements, like neurons or other cells, facilitate) is the mind.


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: mush_monkey]
    #29677948 -

I guess you can call mind a substrate, but what is it a substrate of?
you coould call the internet a substrate, even the ocean is a substrate...


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #29677999 -

Spirit
Mind is substrate of spirit


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When my pies have nine lives?"
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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: langten69]
    #29678007 -

each substrate is of some other thing a substrate.

the term "emergent" comes about from all these substrate references.

precision examinations seem missing, but we know things are connected, we (collectively) just have not clarified how.


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29678025 -

That just verifies the consciousness is one axiom

All things are interconnected to the one source

Precision examination requires a viewpoint to be the substrate of its own existence yet each viewpoint has the freedom of making its own opinion

Therefore precision examinations can only be percieved by those who share such a viewpoint

Every collective has their own lingo and terminology


--------------------
"Why try for high fives,
When my pies have nine lives?"
DUBJUG TEK 🍶
PROJECT H.D. 🐴
PLASTIC-EATING MYCELIUM 🍴
TRANSGENETIC EXPRESSION 🧪
JOIN CAKE WARS III TODAY 🫵
MODERN FRUITING CONDITIONS 🍄
REVITALIZE THE CUBENSIS GENEPOOL 🥊
MY FAVORITE TEKS 📖

Edited by langten69 (09/25/26 09:45 AM)

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: mush_monkey] * 1
    #29678089 -

With all due respect, this is just determinism; this says absolutely nothing about the actual metaphysical nature of what constitutes actual raw consciousness/constancy.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29678098 -

redgreenvines said:
I guess you can call mind a substrate, but what is it a substrate of?
you coould call the internet a substrate, even the ocean is a substrate...


Don't give matter a pass. Physicists cannot answer what an electron is made of, or a proton, or any particle of matter. Quantum mechanics can't nail it down; quite the opposite: it indicates that matter is a ghost that only takes on "substance" when observed or measured.

The reason why metaphysical idealism and panpsychism are (slowly) gaining traction among physicists is precisely because placing subjective experience itself at the ground of being seems to best fit the facts we currently possess. Placing anything else at the ground appears incoherent, because any thing is going to have to be made of something, and whatever that something is, it must in turn be made of some more primary something.

But experience—or consciousness—does not have quite that problem. It is a "suchness" that simply is, putting halt to what otherwise must be an infinite regress of "thingnesses."

Edited by Soothfast (09/25/26 02:22 PM)

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29678105 -

redgreenvines said:
do these creations (thoughts) happen in you, to you, by you?
do they happen in dreamless sleep?
do they happen when you dream?
I know they happen when awake
Are we talking about the same thing when we say thoughts?


Our conscious inner lives are not wholly accessible to us, even when we exercise intense introspection or enter a deep meditative state. Much of what constitutes "you" as a mental complex is dissociated from the scope of your awareness.

In any case, I'm not sure what relevance your questions have here. It's not like any of the possible answers are going to substantiate (pun intended?) a materialist viewpoint.

Edited by Soothfast (09/25/26 02:23 PM)

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: mush_monkey] * 1
    #29678122 -

mush_monkey said:
At this point, I would like to add more confusion to the conversation and posit that the substrate you are alluding to (the electric, or other type of, fields that certain molecular arrangements, like neurons or other cells, facilitate) is the mind.


One of my peeves is how neuroscientists discuss their findings. Time and again they speak in terms suggesting they have "explained" consciousness, or discovered how it arises, which is tosh. One gets the impression that neuroscientists don't really know what the word "consciousness" means. A precise, universally agreed upon definition doesn't exist, but most anyone who thinks honestly on the subject can formulate a fair idea. We each are conscious entities, after all, so the idea of subjectivity is what we each have the most intimate, unmediated acquaintance with (quite unlike matter).

What neuroscientists are mostly in the business of cataloging these days are material and electrical correlates of conscious activity.

We may never know whether consciousness is emergent from material arrangements or ontologically primary, but the language used by neuroscientists is most definitely not metaphysically neutral. This is not how science is supposed to work, but human prejudices bleed into every institution and avenue of inquiry—even the supposedly "objective" ones.

Now, sometimes a legitimate scientific paper is misrepresented by YouTubers. The title of the YouTube in the OP is pure clickbait, like the title of this thread (though I get that you were possibly being ironic when you wrote the title).

Edited by Soothfast (09/25/26 02:08 PM)

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast]
    #29678222 -

For me, I find it soothing when I get enough of a handle on something such that that same gripped thing connects consistently with some other still gripped thing, and I can let go with confidence and not fall.

I am like a gibbon walking with his arms up and waving a bit - always ready to go up into the branches of the forest of interconnecting ideas.



I am not so concerned about absolutes or even about extremely remote scales of containment or contained extremes that are beyond sensing, and even beyond augmented sensations, i.e. tinier than molecules and atoms - i.e. larger than galaxies - microsecond time scales - million year time scales...
Ideas that are out of scale in time and space mostly can connect arbitrarily without ever affecting my peace of mind, or physical comfort, although I appreciate not thinking of them in ways that break all my other connections.

Materialism, Metaphysical Idealism, Panpsychism do not appease or soothe the aching that comes from the kinds of questions I am highlighting here

Soothfast said:
redgreenvines said:
do these creations (thoughts) happen in you, to you, by you?
do they happen in dreamless sleep?
do they happen when you dream?
I know they happen when awake
Are we talking about the same thing when we say thoughts?


Our conscious inner lives are not wholly accessible to us, even when we exercise intense introspection or enter a deep meditative state. Must of what constitutes "you" as a mental complex is dissociated from the scope of your awareness.

In any case, I'm not sure what relevance your questions have here. It's not like any of the possible answers are going to substantiate (pun intended?) a materialist viewpoint.


you do not have to have a materialist or panpsychist or Metahysical Idealist view to answer those questions.

for this conversation, I just wanted to get a consistent grip on where you think your thoughts happen, or even if you think a thought is what I think a thought is.

so how about this, I will offer my answers and please, without worrying about which philosophical camp you want to represent, just react to my answers - if you agree or how you differ.

when I talk about my thoughts
I am talking about something inside me, that others cannot hear, see, or feel - although they may read the expression of my face.
I have thoughts when awake and when dreaming alike.
many of my thoughts are not verbal, some are geometric, some are like organic bubbles (gas?), some are like itches, some have lights flashing, or stars, and some perform complex tasks. Often I have thoughts of things that must be done which I rearrange so that the order of doing them makes me feel like I have a better grip on my day. Sometimes I think I am like the floor, and I can feel the chair legs resting on me, and I extend in every direction and change level at the steps.
Sometimes I think about thinking, and I review my recent thoughts and measure how fast they came and went, how sequences take time like the real thing, but how I can think of the whole sequence in a flash and not relive it sequentially, including this sentence.
The fastest thinking I can do is to flash on different things 6 times per second - still images, feelings, or sequence ideas like the meaning of some unspoken sentences all summed up in a flash.
Sometimes I think of whole branches of science or history or geographical places in flashes, as if I could dive into those contexts but am only just on the edge of their detailed architectures and meanings, as if ideas of things could become directions to get into or not.

I think my thoughts happen in this body and in this brain-mind that I have grown to inhabit since the time I was an awkward baby. the range of timescales fit with brain events, and the privacy of the whole inner life affair of dreams and personal ideas make it seem very unlikely that they come from a place other than the baby who grew into an adult.


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29678276 -

Okay. Your take on metaphysics is much like my wife's: if it's beyond knowing then it's not worth worrying too much about. And she's a physicalist, as was I when we first got together. Imagine the lively conversations this engenders!

It's fair to ask, "What does it matter? Consciousness exists, so what does it matter whether it emerges somehow from mindless stuff or is eternally omnipresent?" But it does matter. If we are all like dissociated alters, say, of a universal, unitary field of consciousness, it means we are all ontologically connected down to the ground of Being itself, our apparent separateness just a delusion stemming from a lack of access to information. If reality has no basis other than mindless "stuff," what's the "stuff" that makes up that "stuff"?

I'm tempted to go on, but I'll save it for a thread of my own someday—probably a dozen threads. I have a rough draft of one already.

As to your questions, I want to give you decent answers, so it'll have to wait until next week. I don't want to rush it. I'm working on a novel that explores various metaphysical issues, and I need to finish a page today. I've been using this forum sometimes to procrastinate on working on the thing (though many of my conversations here have been educational). Two years ago it was just going to be six very short stories, but they've become interconnected into a kind of wheels-within-wheels exploration of the nature of existence. I'm learning as I go...

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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast]
    #29678285 -

re: the literary project you are working on - fantastic,a dn don't let us interfere with any momentum once things get rolling that way.

re:"we are all ontologically connected down to the ground of Being itself" without question! assuredly.

re:"apparent separateness just a delusion stemming from a lack of access to information" - this is connected with {what's the "stuff" that makes up that "stuff"? }, and that is precisely where my interest resides. Not so much externally among atoms and galaxies as such, but in terms of living minds and streams of consciousness.


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Re: Consciousness solved - it was ephaptic coupling [Re: Soothfast]
    #29678286 -

What alternative to mind as matter is there? Electrical activity, magnetism, thermal radiation, its all inarguably present within us.

Some eternally omnipresent substrate that a human nervous system couples to sounds like a physics proposal of a non-elecromagnetic field, and that's fair enough, but I dont see a need to go past something like that.

If the mind isn't involved with electromagnetism, then whatever matter makes up our nervous system might just be interacting with an as of yet undescribed field.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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