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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
'Assault' Weapons
    #2958520 - 08/03/04 01:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Can someone explain to me how a flash suppressor, a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, a thumbhole stock, a folding or telescoping stock, a forward pistol grip, threaded barrel, an overall length of less than 30 inches, a second handgrip, or shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand make a rifle any more dangerous that one without these characteristics? While you're at it, why is a 7.62 x 39 or a .223 more worrisome to possess than a 270 Win, a 7mm mag, a 300 Win. Mag, or a 30-06 Springfield?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2958528 - 08/03/04 01:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

because children DIE!!!!!!

think of the CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Loc: NY
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2958606 - 08/03/04 01:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

guns are immortant to have even if kids die. think if the government took all of our guns and we couldnt fight back


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[url=http://kratom.tcotu.net Low Priced, High Quality Kratom[/url]


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OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,849
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 14 hours, 7 minutes
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2958647 - 08/03/04 02:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I would say that most of those would make a gun more usuable for sustained action and more suitable battle.  The flash suppressor would make it more difficult to pinpoint the source of fire.  If the government ever decided to take away the guns and attempt to enslave us, this would make the resistance that would undoubtedly arise better equipped than neccessary. 

:shiftyeyes:


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2958698 - 08/03/04 02:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
While you're at it, why is a 7.62 x 39 or a .223 more worrisome to possess than a 270 Win, a 7mm mag, a 300 Win. Mag, or a 30-06 Springfield?



Because those are military rounds and are cheaper to buy. On a side note we should be able to own military weapons as that is one of the main points of the second amendment. The citizens should be a threat to the government.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (08/03/04 02:43 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,004
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2958734 - 08/03/04 02:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think the whole anti-gun argument is based on emotion that the idea of guns and killing produce.  With this train of thought, if a gun is "scary" or "mean" looking then it should be banned.... 

One day, either soon or distant, some threat from either inside or out will pose a serious threat to America (or any country for that matter).  What does a government "of the people" have to worry about an armed public?  Nothing, if they are truly "of the people".

Im a little ashamed to admit ive never even fired a gun... I remember as a child, using an old Vietnam rifle my uncle brought back, I would stab a photo of Saddam with the bayonet  :lol: That was back during the fist gulf war of course.  I would like to get a gun when i get more money, fortunately my state allows conceal carry with a permit.
:guns:


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: DieCommie]
    #2958743 - 08/03/04 02:57 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I say get a gun while you still can.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: DieCommie]
    #2959257 - 08/03/04 09:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What does a government "of the people" have to worry about an armed public?  Nothing, if they are truly "of the people".



:thumbup:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2959293 - 08/03/04 09:54 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
I would say that most of those would make a gun more usuable for sustained action...



Well, the so-called assault weapons are semi-auto and none of those characteristics make a difference to most people that I know.

Quote:

...and more suitable battle. The flash suppressor would make it more difficult to pinpoint the source of fire.



But the assault weapons have bans placed on them because they are favored weapons of drug dealers, gang bangers and other criminals (or so we are told). How are these weapons made any more dangerous by these characteristics (especially when used by common thugs)? These charactersitics are really cosmetic (**edit** except the barrel shroud which should be considered a safety feature). There is no mechanical difference between so-called assault weapons and hunting rifles. One can easily replace the stock on a mini-14 and go from respectable ranch rifle to dangerous assault weapon in a matter of minutes.

Quote:

If the government ever decided to take away the guns and attempt to enslave us, this would make the resistance that would undoubtedly arise better equipped than neccessary.



The American GI was able to beat the Germans and Japanese using the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine. The 30-06 is undoubtably a better round for hitting targets at a distance than either the .223 or the 7.62 x 39.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (08/03/04 10:22 AM)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: z@z.com]
    #2959349 - 08/03/04 10:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Because those are military rounds and are cheaper to buy.



But does that make them more dangerous?  So the common man with less money is penalized in his options for the shooting sports.  Not very egalitarian.  I really should have asked which rounds are more deadly because that was the gist of what I was getting at :blush:.  The .223 & 7.62 x 39 are less effective rounds in many situations and hence less deadly in some ways.  The .243 Win is arguably a better choice for a light tactical round.

Quote:

On a side note we should be able to own military weapons as that is one of the main points of the second amendment. The citizens should be a threat to the government.



I agree.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinezeronio
Stranger
Male

Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2959512 - 08/03/04 10:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If the government ever decided to take away the guns and attempt to enslave us, this would make the resistance that would undoubtedly arise better equipped than neccessary.




Government already enslaved you without taking away your guns. If you're armed you're a danger only for your family and neighbours - not for the government.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2959562 - 08/03/04 11:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
guns are immortant to have even if kids die. think if the government took all of our guns and we couldnt fight back




haha, yeah, keep dreaming.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2959658 - 08/03/04 11:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You are fighting the government with firepower?

Hey you could always fly aeroplanes into skyscrapers and the pentagon if you are up for it.


Are you a terrorist? They will call you that.

:rockets: <----- is that an 'assault' weapon?

:sniper:  <----- is that one?

:laser:  <------ aaahhh - a pistol - that's not an 'assault' weapon is it?  Or does that grip protrude a  bit  too conspicuously?
shit it is quite badass isn't it! Lazer capability! Wooo HOO!!!

Are lazer guns 'assault' weapons?

I can't imagine conducting an 'assault' with anything that does not have a thumbhole stock. It's so obvious that you can't. :mrt:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: zeronio]
    #2959683 - 08/03/04 11:43 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zeronio said:
If you're armed you're a danger only for your family and neighbours...



Please don't make ignorant and ill informed statements.

Quote:

...not for the government.



Tell me, why do outstanding liberals such as Diane Fienstein, Charles Schumer and Ted Kennedy want to ban firearms that aren't used in crimes? I'll give you a hint, they're scared of the public. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, a government that truly is of, by and for the people has no reason to fear an armed populace, for in such a case the people ARE the government.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: CJay]
    #2959716 - 08/03/04 11:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
I can't imagine conducting an 'assault' with anything that does not have a thumbhole stock. It's so obvious that you can't. :mrt:



He he, touches on my point.  Those who want to ban so called assault weapons but say it's okay to keep hunting rifles, really don't know firearms.  They are driven by hysteria, an irrational fear of what they don't understand.  Of course, there are a great many of those who want to ban 'assault weapons' as another step towards total disarmament of the populace - they fear that the populace will one day wake up and realize that the government is not of the people anymore.  This would greatly limit public appearences by the ruling class and further destroy the illusion that they speak for the common man.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2959794 - 08/03/04 12:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

a government that truly is of, by and for the people has no reason to fear an armed populace, for in such a case the people ARE the government.





There will always be minority factions who may or may not choose to employ violence to acheive their political ends (like eco-terrorists for example :wink:)


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2959807 - 08/03/04 12:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Please don't make ignorant and ill informed statements.




how many successful government uprisings have there been since the 1783? How did Koresh do? How did the Montana Freemen do? Ruby Ridge?

How many firearm deaths have there been? So far, statistics show guns have only been a real threat to fellow citizens.

Quote:

Tell me, why do outstanding liberals such as Diane Fienstein, Charles Schumer and Ted Kennedy want to ban firearms that aren't used in crimes? I'll give you a hint, they're scared of the public.



Hell, most of D.C. was scared shitless by just two men and one rifle.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2959916 - 08/03/04 12:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

Please don't make ignorant and ill informed statements.




how many successful government uprisings have there been since the 1783?



I was referring to his ignorant and illinformed statement that HagbardCeline is a danger only for his family and neighbours. That IS ignorant and ill informed. Do you realize that water in the home is statistically a greater danger than a firearm? Do you realize that an automobile is also a greater danger? He and you have no way of knowing how safely HagbardCeline or any other decent people handle firearms and what precautions they take in their homes and neighborhoods. My bet based on statistical evidence is that you are more of a threat in your automobile.

There has not been a popular armed anti-government uprising in this country since it's founding. So your examples do not apply. Koresh DID NOT attack the government, it was the other way around. I don't not recall that the Montana Freemen were leading a popular armed uprising against the government either, perhaps you can provide evidence of this. No one at Ruby Ridge attacked the government, it was the other way around. For a good perspective on Ruby Ridge, try reading the book by left wing attorney Gerry Spence, 'From Freedom to Tyrrany.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2959931 - 08/03/04 01:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

a government that truly is of, by and for the people has no reason to fear an armed populace, for in such a case the people ARE the government.





There will always be minority factions who may or may not choose to employ violence to acheive their political ends (like eco-terrorists for example :wink:)



So what?  Do you think the lawless will obey the law?  Why should the government fear the common man, unless the government is corrupt and is not of, by and for the people?  It would seem that the common man could easily be enlisted to help against terrorist if the government trusted the people.  But this is not the case.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2959946 - 08/03/04 01:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

My bet based on statistical evidence is that you are more of a threat in your automobile.




Absolutely, which is why I can understand and accept the multitude of safety regulations involved.

Quote:

Koresh DID NOT attack the government, it was the other way around. I don't not recall that the Montana Freemen were leading a popular armed uprising against the government either, perhaps you can provide evidence of this. No one at Ruby Ridge attacked the government, it was the other way around.




True, but my point was that they were examples of resisting the government with firearms to no avail.

Quote:

For a good perspective on Ruby Ridge, try reading the book by left wing attorney Gerry Spence, 'From Freedom to Tyrrany.'




Agreed, I'll never forget that chapter, only book in memory that has made me tear :thumbup:


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