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Anonymous

what is the militia?
    #3347498 - 11/11/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

- the second amendment to the u.s. constitution

the militia part is a subordinate clause to the sentence, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". it gives one reason for not infringing on that right. it doesn't say that it's the only reason.

objections to the citizens' rights interpretation of the second amendment are usually based on the militia clause. some people would prefer to think that the second amendment refers to the right of state's to maintain an armed national guard force, not the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

though this objection is clearly false to any nonbiased person with a grip on grammar and sentence structure, i would just like to point out that according to US law, the militia does not even refer solely to the national guard, but quite a bit more:

U.S. Code

? 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are?
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

i am curious:
i believe tha the second amedment to the US constitution:
You may choose only one
refers to the right of individuals to keep and bear arms
i believe that the second amendment does not refer to the right of individuals to keep and bear arms


Votes accepted from (11/11/04 05:35 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3347547 - 11/11/04 05:44 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

how about this: since it was written in 1789, what it is referring to as 'arms' can be argued not to include easily concealable handguns and semiautomatics.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
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Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3347554 - 11/11/04 05:45 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

i would definately argue though that the purpose of the second amendnment is militia, it is not self-defense.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3347648 - 11/11/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

a very long and exhaustively researched paper on what is meant by "arms" and what it means in today's society:

http://www.brainshavings.com/supplements/arms/index.htm


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3347713 - 11/11/04 06:13 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

an interesting point by the author:

Quote:

Quote:


    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.77




Common sense tells us that no interpretation of any legal text can rightly be read so as to threaten the explicitly stated reasons for enacting the text in the first place. I think the preamble supports the idea that we the people can rein in someone's claim to a "right" if that right presents enough of a threat to our domestic tranquility, and if the general welfare of our people is in enough danger. The danger posed by powerful weapons controlled by incompetent, careless, or malevolent individuals obviously qualifies.




then i got to this:

Quote:

permit citizens to arm themselves, but not with weapons so capable of killing vast numbers of other people that the risk would outweigh the benefit. This framework might draw the outer boundary at, say, a mid-size howitzer, a backpack sized flamethrower, a shoulder-launched surface-to-air missile, or an anti-tank mine... these weapons should be suitable for private ownership.




:what: giving a weapon with which any trained person in plain sight of a 747 flying past could bring it down killing hundreds??


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3347854 - 11/11/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

does sound like the author got a little ahead of himself.


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OfflineSigno
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Registered: 03/05/02
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Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3347894 - 11/11/04 06:58 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

The milita is the national guard however IMO the amendment leaves open the ability for anyone to become a member of any militia, federally formed or not if the US is ever attacked by an outside entity (or if someone wants to form a militia anyways). To assure a member of this "to be formed" militia, all citizens should have the right to arm and train themselves with weapons, if they choose.


--------------------


Correlation is not causation!


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3347903 - 11/11/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:

:what: giving a weapon with which any trained person in plain sight of a 747 flying past could bring it down killing hundreds??




A suitably trained person could kill hundreds of people with fertilizer and a U-haul, and they have. Ban cow manure?


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: retread]
    #3347921 - 11/11/04 07:07 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

A suitably trained person could kill hundreds of people with fertilizer and a U-haul, and they have. Ban cow manure?

the compound you are talking about is made with deisel and ammonium nitrate fertilizer. both of these substances have a widespread and incredibly important civilian use, and it is actually pretty difficult to mix them properly and get the result to detonate. a shoulder-fired SAM is an offensive weapon and has no reasonable civilian purpose under almost any circumstances.


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Signo]
    #3347929 - 11/11/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

The milita is the national guard...

not according to U.S. Code Title 10 Subtitle A Part I Chapter 13 Section 311.

"(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age"


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3348049 - 11/11/04 07:42 PM (12 years, 24 days ago)

It is plan as the paper it's written on. And by the results of this poll so far......................................


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3349252 - 11/12/04 12:06 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

one illiterate shroomerite so far.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3349609 - 11/12/04 01:43 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

As far as i can tell, that's one sentence. This whole debate could be cleared up by my first grade english teacher Mrs Farmer. If you reverse the two parts of the sentence it becomes even more clear "The right of the people to keep and maintain arms shall not be infringed, in order to maintain a well-regulated militia". This sentence does not say every Floyd, Clem or Burl has the right to bear arms. It does not say every psychopathic yahoo in the country should be able to own a gun. It doesn't say that AT ALL and anyone with an education higher than the first grade should be able to comprehend this.

- Bill Hicks


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Xlea321]
    #3350360 - 11/12/04 08:16 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

This sentence does not say every Floyd, Clem or Burl has the right to bear arms.

actually, it still says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", and it still gives one reason for refraining from doing so. there is no indication that the maintanence of a militia for defense of the state was the only reason for protecting a citizen's right to keep and bear arms; the founding fathers knew that self-defense was a fundamental right. the point is moot anyway because as you can read, U.S. law clearly states that the militia is comprised not only of the national guard, but also, with a few exceptions, all able-bodied males between the ages of 17 and 45.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
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Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3350419 - 11/12/04 08:44 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

why do they include the militia part if its merely one justification of many rather than the reason? none of the other amendments on the bill of rights have a justification for why theyre in place. it doesnt say "Competition in a marketplace of ideas, being necessary for public discourse, the right to speak shall not be infringed". no it just says 'congress shall make no law...'. similar too for all the other bill of rights amendments.

and hicks makes a reasonable statement saying:
"If you reverse the two parts of the sentence it becomes even more clear "The right of the people to keep and maintain arms shall not be infringed, in order to maintain a well-regulated militia"." when you read shakespeare, you see that a lot of phrases are put in the reverse order of how we speak today.

also the point about "no interpretation of any legal text can rightly be read so as to threaten the explicitly stated reasons for enacting the text in the first place." is a fair one as well. of course its up for interpretation what is 'domestic tranquility'. personally, i think everyone walking around with concealed weapons is not very tranquil. others will disagree with me.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3350616 - 11/12/04 10:33 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Alright, I have a question that I can't find an easy answer to on Google. How long have gun rights been a major issue?

Does anyone know if people were debating this 50 years ago? 100? 150? 200?

I think this might give some indication of whether or not views have changed and whether or not we're 'misreading' the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Gijith]
    #3350685 - 11/12/04 10:57 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

since it was created.


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: Tao]
    #3350716 - 11/12/04 11:07 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

why do they include the militia part if its merely one justification of many rather than the reason?

the militia clause was included to emphasize the role of the civilian militia in national defense. james madison, and many of the other founders, were opposed to the notion of a standing army in a time of peace. this alone is the basic intent behind the entire 3rd amendment. the militia clause in the second amendment was included to emphasize this sentiment. again, it is one reason, not the only reason, for allowing citizens the right to arm themselves.

"as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good militia."

"a well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."

"the Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation..."

- james madison, author of the bill of rights


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Anonymous

Re: what is the militia? [Re: ]
    #3350763 - 11/12/04 11:22 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

- the second amendment to the u.s. constitution


"as the greatest danger to liberty is from large standing armies, it is best to prevent them by an effectual provision for a good militia."

"a well regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."

"the Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation..."

- james madison, author of the bill of rights


U.S. Code

? 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are?
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.




  :what:

sad. really sad.


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OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Yeti Sports

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 6 months, 26 days
Re: what is the militia? [Re: Gijith]
    #3350789 - 11/12/04 11:28 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Alright, I have a question that I can't find an easy answer to on Google. How long have gun rights been a major issue?

Does anyone know if people were debating this 50 years ago? 100? 150? 200?

I think this might give some indication of whether or not views have changed and whether or not we're 'misreading' the 2nd amendment.




This is a good question. Gun and weapon ownership has been an issue that goes back to the dawn of time. It boils down to two distinct lines of thought on government. The people are the property of the government or the government is the property of the people.

The European and Japanese feudal aristocracies loathed firearms, because they eliminated the role of the nobility in combat. Firearms democratized warfare, penetrated armor, and allowed fighting from a distance, thereby greatly reducing the importance of the nobility's old skills with swords in close combat. In Japan and much of Europe, the aristocracy promoted laws restricting or prohibiting the possession of firearms, especially handguns, by common people.

In continental Europe and England, hunting was tightly controlled by the aristocracy. Common people were often forbidden even to kill a rabbit that was eating their crops on their own land. No sane governor or legislature in the American colonies would have attempted to impose European-style hunting or gun-control laws, for such repressive laws would have made it impossible for much of the American population to survive.

Colonial laws generally required each household to possess a firearm, for service in the militia and other civil defense. Households that could not afford a gun were often given "public arms" by the government to keep at home.

Beginning in 1774, when the British army occupying Boston began confiscating the inhabitants' firearms, the American Revolution confirmed what the founders had learned from their studies of ancient Greece and Rome, as well as from English and French history: The possession of arms was essential to the retention of political and civil rights.

Thus, starting with the Pennsylvania and North Carolina constitutions in 1776, American state constitutions have usually included a right to arms provision. The federal constitution added the Second Amendment in 1791.

The federal and state constitutions have helped develop a "rights consciousness" far stronger than can be found in any other nation. The very existence of written rights--taught in school and upheld by the courts--inculcates in people a greater and greater determination to uphold their rights.

In this way, the rights consciousness engendered by the written "right to arms" led to additional protections for rights. Since 1963, the people of Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin have chosen, either through their legislature or through a direct vote, to add a right to arms to their state constitution or to readopt the right to arms or strengthen an existing right. In every state where the people have had the opportunity to vote directly, they have voted for the right to arms by overwhelming margins. In 1998, Wisconsin voted the right to arms in a 74 percent landslide.

The first US federal gun law was the NFA (National Firearms Act) of 1934 http://keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm
It did not directly restrict the ownership of guns. It simply crated a tax on the sale of the weapons.

To Understand this law you have to understand where it came from. By the 1920s lightweight fully-automatic firearms were available for sale to the general public. Private ownership of fully-automatic firearms resulted in no particular crime problem, but became an issue after the prohibition of liquor in 1919 by the 18th Amendment, (repealed in 1933 by the 21st Amendment). Prohibition was followed by an increase in organized crime, which anti-gun politicians over-estimated to involve the use of submachineguns, especially the Thompson .45 caliber, nicknamed the "Tommy Gun." Following passage of restrictions on fully-automatic firearms in several states, the administration of the newly-elected president, Democrat Franklin D. Roosevelt, launched a campaign for a federal restriction. In a style of language copied by President Clinton in his war against semi-automatic firearms, President Roosevelt claimed in 1934 that "Federal men are constantly facing machine-gun fire in the pursuit of gangsters." The result of FDR`s campaign was the National Firearms Act of 1934

The law was found to be unconstitutional in State vs. Miller, though the ruling was overturned on appeal to the Supreme Court as the defendant failed to appear, and no brief was filled on Miller's behalf. Miller was arrested for possession of an unregistered short barreled shotgun. Miller's defense was that the shotgun was legal under the Second Amendment. The government's argument was that the short barreled shotgun was not a military weapon and thus not a "militia" weapon protected by the Second Amendment. This decision is incorrect because short barreled shotguns were in fact used by American troops during the trench warfare of World War I, and after the Miller decision in World War II and the Vietnam War.

This is a time line of Federal gun laws

1791 Second Amendment Ratified
1934 National Firearms Act
1938 Federal Firearms Act
1968 Gun Control Act
1972 Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms created
1986 Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act
1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act
1990 Crime Control Act
1994 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act
1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (Commonly referred to as the Assault Weapons Ban,)

You may note that for over 143 years gun control was not an issue.


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