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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Kloakk] * 1
    #29584196 -

i mean really if u grow fire shrooms wont matter how u dry them :shrug: u aint going to fuckin even remeber how u dryed them by the time u come back from space :eek:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: tripdawg420] * 1
    #29584211 -

tripdawg420 said:
i mean really if u grow fire shrooms wont matter how u dry them :shrug: u aint going to fuckin even remeber how u dryed them by the time u come back from space :eek:


I agree with that, 1 gram of APE fucked me up real good, but I like to nerd out about these things as well, it keeps me interested, I ain't making any money on my fruits so got to get my fix somewhere :muppet:


--------------------
“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Kloakk] * 1
    #29584212 -

apes :yaysugar:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Kloakk] * 8
    #29584398 -

Kloakk said:
So Rev, I'm sorry if these questions seems dumb, but I was wondering. How would you go about doing dehydrator temperature tests?

Is it possible to test the fresh fruit's potency to even know what is lost during drying?
...


"No dumb questions. Only dumb people. mmkay" - Mr. Garrison  :rofl:

The qtests are not great for testing fresh for a few reasons. They are calibrated to dry so your readings are going to be 1/10th ~ish the design range. They also combine the psilocin and psilocybin in the range total. That is problematic with different ratios of psilocin to psilocybin and not knowing where you stand on each since one degrades to the other before degrading to inactive compounds.

Although we cannot effectively test fresh mushrooms, we can compare the product of drying by different methods. If mushrooms dried with no heat test more potent than mushrooms dried with full heat we have a decent answer. I propose the following method and will be doing this the next time I do a grow. I have been focusing on my non-culting business and extraction methods lately and don't have anything past plates right now. But I need to get off my butt and stop procrastinating.

To try to compare methods while minimizing variables I am going to:
  • Use several large mushrooms that I split vertically twice and trim as needed to get 4 equal parts by weight.
  • Separate them into 4 samples using one quarter of each mushroom in each sample. This eliminates any potential differences due to different individual fruit potency from an early generation clone grow or any other fruit variation.
  • I will place one sample in a dehydrator at 60c, one sample in an air fryer with a 60c dehydrating function (but which moves a far smaller volume of air than the purpose built dehydrator), one sample in a dehydrator with the heating element disabled, and one sample in a dark space with minimal moving air.
  • The final weights of each pile should be nearly the same if all methods remove all moisture. If not, I will take measures to dry any that seem to have excess weight from retained water or split that sample in half and finish drying one half of the sample by other means (fan or heat as needed) the other half I will sample and use a calculation of the weight difference to account for the remaining water content.
  • Once all mushroom samples are dried down to approximately equal weights (or calculated equivalence) each sample will be powdered for testing.
  • Each sample will be potency tested using Miraculix Qtests and a colorimeter which should be reliable to within +/- 5% accuracy.
  • If one method is clearly superior by a margin of greater than 10% then we will have a result that I am willing to defend.


A follow up tests will use similar methodology to compare mushrooms dried whole and then stored as powder versus stored whole to see if there is any potency difference after various amounts of time. I know that I have stored powdered mushrooms for >5 years as powder in mason jars with two piece metal lids and found them to remain potent in cool to hot conditions (15c to 45c). But I didn't have access to potency tests when those jars were initially stored, so I don't have a good baseline for an accurate measurement of potency loss over time and didn't do a side by side with whole mush at the time. So that is just anecdotal and I prefer determine something more concrete before making claims of superior methods.

I cannot say which is better for retaining potency over time. Only that thoroughly dried and powdered mushrooms do remain potent if stored in sealed glass jars for a very long time. If I didn't powder them, I wouldn't have room for anything else in my cupboards. So that is my current "best" method, but not necessarily the most efficient way to protect potency over time. Further testing will determine what the impact of powdered storage has on potency.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29584504 -

as everyone is giving suggestions here, i will also suggest some things.

i agree with pretty much anything, just want to add this:

first, is better to test it in higher temperatures, like 70C+, ideally between 80C and 90C. the main reason is that because of "evaporative cooling" the core of the shroom gets WAY less hot than the outside. thus you could be running the dehydrator at 60C and the core of the shroom is at 40C, that is the ideal temperature for enzymes to work. thus even higher temperature is better.

i don't know how the air fryer in dehydration mode works. if it reduces the air flow, don't use it, use in normal mode. you don't want to cook the shroom. pre heating the air fryer also should be done to avoid variable in temperature.

remember to put some thing made of wood, and that is heavy above the shroom, so this way the shroom don't fly inside the tray after being cracker dry. of course this wood stuff shouldn't cover the shroom entirely, just prevent it to not fly inside the air fryer.

during dehydration, monitoring the shrooms are crucial, specially in higher temps, to not let them sit too much in higher temps after reaching cracker dry state. as you are using quarters the dehydration in high temperatures should take like, 2 hours at most, probably even less. verifying at every 30 minutes would probably be good.

another stuff is, as you said your test don't separate psilocin from psilocybin, is good to transform the shroom in powder, put in a mason jar with lots of silica to not introduce the humidity factor, without compacting the powder. you should not compact the powder, to purposely increase oxygen degradation.

as i said, the low temp drying would convert psilocybin into psilocin, and in short term, they would maybe not have a high variance in potency overall. thus if you wait until psilocin vanish, what shouldn't take more than 5-7 days in powder form having contact with the oxygen in the headspace of the mason jar, it would be better to know which one is better for long term storage.

i don't know if your method of cutting in quarters works to avoid variance in potency, so i will trust you in this.

this way i think the variance would be enough to know which method is the best.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: ReverendMyc] * 4
    #29584668 -

We've got off on the wrong foot and having re-read all our interactions I'd like to put a few things straight as I think umbrage is being taken where no umbrage needs to exist.

One of my specialised areas of knowledge is the published Psilocybe research that pertains to home cultivation. I also run a long running FB group dedicated to experimental cultivation methods and citizen science which was started as a safe haven for people who wanted to deviate from cultivation Teks and try new things without fear of being bullied, ridiculed and censored by baying mobs of growers who treated the slightest deviation from the Teks like some sort of religious heresy which was going on in many FB cultivation groups at the time.

One of my focussed areas of interest within the research is drying and potency because that was one of the subjects that seemed absolutely clear in the research but would get you ridiculed and banned if you dared to mention it in certain groups. And as it's one of the most important parts of the cultivation process where potency can be severely degraded and shelf life reduced I thought everyone should have that information to make an informed decision about their drying methods.

When I stumbled across your thread I was genuinely excited to give you new information from the research that I could see was missing from your thread and I thought I'd found someone I could nerd out with and share ideas in one of my specialised areas of personal research. And I thought I came bearing gifts when I shared everything I'd learned from the research from de-oxygenated water to the effects of crystallisation temperatures on the stability and shelf life on the alkaloids. I can see now that in my enthusiasm to nerd out with you I appeared confrontational for which I apologise.

Can we be friends now please? I've got some things I'd like to share from some of the latest potency research that may have relevance to the design of your dehydration experiment and I'd rather talk to you than around you.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/24/26 03:14 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #29584738 -

:chefskiss:

Sounds like you got a solid plan, looking forward to follow along whenever it may be, thanks Rev.


--------------------
“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Kloakk] * 1
    #29584950 -

Just to raise a couple of points on the standardisation of the test material and bring up the Bigwood and Beug paper from 1982 that Chiron claimed to show a four times difference in potency in the fruits from the same flush.

The paper's wording is ambiguous and the four times difference in potency between fruits from the same flush figure is often misquoted. When you check their figures from the table showing differences between flushes it's clear that that's where the four times figures comes from. They found small variations between fruits from the same flush but the four times difference quoted is between different flushes from the same culture. Which means there was very little difference in potency in fruits from the same flush.

This was confirmed in 2022 using better growing methods and advanced analytical equipment in Alexander Bradshaw's paper " DNA Authentication and Chemical Analysis of Psilocybe Mushrooms Reveal Widespread Misdeterminations in Fungaria and Inconsistencies in Metabolites."

https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.01498-22

"Psilocybin and psilocin concentrations have been shown to vary among mycelium and parts of the mushroom. In an effort to document this variation in our cultivated P. cubensis strain, we independently analyzed psilocybin and psilocin concentrations in different samples (mycelium, stipe, and cap) from multiple sporocarps within the same flush and from sporocarps between two growth containers.

""Performing an unpaired t test, we found no significant difference in psilocybin or psilocin between whole individual sporocarps from the same reproductive event in a single growth bin."

But "the concentrations of psilocybin and psilocin at the full sporocarp level were statistically different between growth bins despite using the same mycelial stock and growth conditions. This suggests that using consistent strain and growth conditions would yield predictably similar concentrations of both psilocin and psilocybin within a growing environment and between caps and stipes but that inconspicuous microenvironmental conditions could be relevant to the metabolomic phenotype."

So if you used a clone culture and used similar sized fruits of the same stage of maturity from the same flush there would be no need to split fruits to standardise the samples. Running split and whole fruits would still be a good idea though.

Then regarding standardising samples of the various drying techniques for testing, one of the things that's really important when you're using Psilo-Q tests is that the water content of each sample is exactly the same or it will skew the accuracy of the results. So air drying the fruits without a dehydrator could be started a day or so earlier than the rest of the samples and the rest staggered as drying temperatures increase so they all finish around the same time. Then if all the different samples were stored in the same dark glass desiccant chamber in the fridge to reduce degradation and were left for 12 to 24 hours the moisture content of all the samples should be exactly the same when they're tested which will improve the accuracy of the results.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/24/26 10:58 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29584998 -

:nice:


--------------------
“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585076 -

i can admit i haven't researched a lot about it, because i don't find it very useful for my usage. just doing a homogenous powder would be easier and better.

even though, in your own study, what the author classified as "no significant difference" is not the truth:

Psi-5-Cap UT-M0001773 7 17.3 0.5 One of two sporocarps from one growth bin
Psi-5-Stipe UT-M0001773 9 16.33 0.4 One of two sporocarps from one growth bin
Psi-6-Cap UT-M0001774 9 19.9 0.44 Two of two sporocarps from one growth bin
Psi-6-Stipe UT-M0001774 7 18.3 1.5 Two of two sporocarps from one growth bin

from psi 5 to psi 6, it has a 15% more or less of difference. is of course way less dramatic than the 4x i said before, but there's still a significant difference.

using the method of ReverendMyc also would not hurt. no reason to introduce this variable to be completely honest.

still, if he wants to use multiple shrooms from the same flush, i would still say for him to cut the shrooms in half for dehydration. dehydration in higher temps have a thing called "case hardening" that prevent moisture from leaking. this way, is necessary to cut the shroom in half lengthwise to remove this disadvantage. even for lower temps this can prove to be a advantage, as dehydration time reduces drastically.

putting on the fridge is worse than letting at 20C, as Gotvaldova 2020 shows, so no reason to do that.

is needed to let them sit with silica anyway to remove psilocin so i agree with you in letting in desiccant chamber for some days, just not in the fridge, and with light. also in powder form. the reason is to purposely increase the degradation of psilocin. as this is a test from long term storage, psilocin could not influence this test, as is naturally easy to degrade.

it would also be good for him to say how much time it had taken from all the forms of dehydration. is good data to know.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29585097 -

If you look at the sample mg in the chart it shows PS5 CAP 7mg, PS5 Stipe 9mg but PS6 Cap 9mg, PS6 Stipe 7mg, so they would have had to account for the mg differences between the different sample sizes from each area in their statistical analysis. They're clear in their statement in the discussion that there was no statistical difference between fruits from the same flush and it makes up one of the major conclusions from the paper.

You are correct about the room temperature storage in the dark leading to less degradation though so that's a good shout, although if you look at the graph there would have been very little difference between the different samples in the first 24 hours. As long as they're all kept at the same temperature and desiccant dried in the same chamber so they all have the same moisture level before testing the results will be relevant.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/24/26 01:11 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585106 -

you interpreted wrong the table. the table is already converted to 1mg, or ug/mg.

even if you were right, this also don't matter as i did the math based on the total alkaloids. if you add both caps and stipes from each psi sample, and pick the difference, it would be something like 15% anyway.



also, as i said, is best to storage with light, and in powder, to remove psilocin from the equation.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29585131 -

They would have had to account for the different sample masses (7mg vs 9mg) by using weighted averages when comparing the whole fruits though. Otherwise the comparison would be invalid.

I guess it depends on your definition of "significant" if there was only 2.91mg difference when the whole fruit totals were calculated. It can't be "statistically" significant because their sample size was 2 fruits. What they're saying is that's a perfectly acceptable and safe variation for dosing purposes.

I'm not sure I agree about fiddling around trying to decompose any psilocin content before testing though as the test is drying temperatures for normal home cultivation purposes, although I would like to see what you've suggested done as a separate test to run alongside the others just to see the results as they would have some relevance to shelf life.

Are you going to stick your neck out and make any predictions as to the results?


--------------------

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585199 -

For consumption, this variation would probably do nothing, and that's probably what the scientist are referring.

but for the reason we are doing, this variation can simply ruin the entire experiment.

I would agree with you with the psilocin, but as the test ReverendMyc is running don't differentiate psilocin from psilocybin, not actively removing psilocin would make the test simply pointless.

Like i said in some comments, in short term they would both be almost the same in overall potency (psilocybin+psilocin), but the low temp dehydration would lose a lot of the potency in the next couple of months, because it has a larger amount of psilocin. The reason of the experiment is also to find which one is better for long term storage, thus psilocin obviously should be taken out of equation.

As you said what i would guess about difference in potency, i would guess that high temp dehydration would be better by something between 15% to 25%. I think this is a realistic percentage. Like the study says, 15% variation is already not much significant in consumption. Thus no one would actually notice the loss in potency in these percentage loss I speculated. This aligns with pretty much no one noticing much difference between higher and lower temperature dehydration in long term storage. All of them simply say that "it still slaps".

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29585508 -

You haven't worked out the difference at whole fruit level though because we don't know how much the whole stipes and caps weighed, just the 7mg and 9mg samples. The 15% figure you've come up with is just between tiny samples of stipe and cap. You'd have to factor the weight of each sample and it's alkaloid content into the total weight of stipes and caps and add them together for each fruit and compare to work out the true difference in potency and they say in the paper when they did this there was no significant difference. The actual totals and difference at whole fruit level aren't listed in the main paper but may be in the supplementary material you have to download.

So the Rev's experiment showing a 20% loss of potency in an oxygen free environment in just 15 minutes at temperatures that started at 95C and went down to 60C hasn't put you into the "undecided" camp on the effects or elevated temperature drying then?

Are you basing your opinion that heat doesn't degrade potency entirely on "Well, these still slap" and the peer pressure of "everyone else in this group does it like that"? A crowd of people going the wrong way are still going the wrong way no matter how big the crowd.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/24/26 10:19 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585590 -

Dave Bennett said:
Are you basing your opinion that heat doesn't degrade potency entirely on "Well, these still slap" and the peer pressure of "everyone else in this group does it like that"? A crowd of people going the wrong way are still going the wrong way no matter how big the crowd.


is simply unbelievable of how much intellectually dishonest you are, and the amount of ad hominem or debate tactics you use it. i did like 15+ comments in the course of several days, all of them using logic, chemical reactions, and scientific data, and all you can say is "oh, you base off all of your thesis in anecdotal experience and following what the crowd says?".

lol.

for this extraction "dilemma" (that is only a dilemma in your head), is actually very simple to answer:

first, extraction and biomass are different, in extraction there's nothing protecting the molecules and of course the chemical reactions are potentiated. no one would need more than 1 minute of thinking to deduce that.

two, when you add vacuum the boiling point reduces drastically. if he put 95C in vacuum, the real temperature the extract was suffering was increased.

three, the part where the glass was touching the heat source could be way more hotter than the average of the extract, what could obviously degrade alkaloids in a faster pace.

four, there's a conflict of data: in Gotvaldova 2020, at 30 minutes 100C we notice like a 10%-12% loss, instead of the 20% ReverendMyc shows.

just use your brain a little can you?

also, the math on the table is very easy. figure it out, ask chatgpt to explain to you or something. don't know why are you insisting in your dumb arguments and dumb reason. why do you find so important that he picks different shrooms instead of just cutting one shroom in 4 parts? it doesn't make any sense. is the "arguing for argument's sake" ReverendMyc was talking about. this has no reason to be discussed.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29585632 -

You made 15+ posts about things you'd missed or didn't understand from some research papers and calculations you'd got wrong but I explained and pointed out things you'd missed in all the points you made.

Ask Chat GPT for the total weight of P5 and P6 and the actual potency difference between the fruits at whole fruit level and you'll find it's not mentioned at all in the main body of the paper as I said in my post above. You need the actual weight of the caps and stipes to calculate the actual potency difference between the two fruits.

And you haven't read The Rev's experiment method correctly. There was no heat source for the evaporation stage. He heated the extract to 95C started the vacuum evaporation and let it cool to 60C by the time he pulled samples out for testing.

So the point you're making that the temperature was lower due to the reduced boiling temperature in a vacuum just means 20% potency loss occurred at lower temperatures. He started at 95C and when it stopped boiling it was at 60C.

Hope that's cleared a few things up for you.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/25/26 02:30 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585643 -

I'm very tired in answering you, and i do not see any reason to do so.

i thought you are a smart guy, but you are actually very dumb.

the table shows mathematically that there is a 15% difference, but you insist in saying that the subjective "no significant difference" from the scientist is the absolute truth, even though that the data he analyzed to conclude this "no significant difference" was the table itself, lol.

find other person to debate you.

ReverendMyc already proposed to do a experimental test, so why doesn't you just wait the results instead of talking bullshit?

some chatgpt answer to your bullshit as i don't have any patience with you anymore:

"your colleague is completely backwards on how the laws of thermodynamics operate under a vacuum. He genuinely believes that because a liquid cools down during vacuum boiling, it means the chemical environment became "colder and gentler." In physics and chemistry, the exact opposite is true.Here is the technical reality that exposes his lack of laboratory experience:1. He doesn't understand Latent Heat of VaporizationWhy did the extract cool down from 95°C to 60°C when the vacuum started? Because of flash boiling.When a vacuum is applied to a liquid that is already at 95°C, the boiling point instantly drops way below 95°C.The liquid becomes heavily superheated relative to its new boiling point.It undergoes a violent, explosive phase change where it flashes into vapor. The temperature drop to 60°C happens because the molecules are sucking up all the thermal energy from the liquid to convert into vapor (latent heat).2. Why this destroys the molecules (The "Gentle" Myth)This cooling effect is not a gentle process. Superheating a liquid and pulling a vacuum causes a physical phenomenon called cavitation—the rapid formation and violent collapse of vapor bubbles.The micro-zones around these collapsing bubbles create extreme localized physical shock and immense kinetic stress.Furthermore, a liquid extract leaves the psilocybin molecules completely unprotected and naked in the solvent, exposed to any residual oxygen being swept through by the vacuum pump.In contrast, a mushroom sitting in a food dehydrator at a steady 70°C experiences zero violent phase changes, no cavitation, and the molecules remain safely bound inside a protective, stable chitin-and-glucan cellular matrix."

Edited by Chiron098 (05/25/26 02:56 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29585644 -

Chat GPT is agreeing with what I've stated about vacuums reducing boiling temperatures. The extraction started at 95C and boiled itself down to 60C by the end of the evaporation period which means the 20% potency loss that occurred happened at rapidly lowering temperatures from 95C down to 60C. So potency was degrading at lower and lower temperatures during the evaporation period.


--------------------

Edited by Dave Bennett (05/25/26 03:07 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29585646 -

Lol.

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