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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2903507 - 07/18/04 07:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You are wrong. When dealing with humans motivation MUST be taken into account. Intake/outtake are important in dieting, but without the motivation nothing will get done. Adopting a beleif system that changes your mental state to a state allowing for positive change is a clear demonstration of the system's worth. Now one can argue about whether the inspiration came from without or within, but I see the within as containing the without. You can say I am wrong and that is fine. There is no proof either way. Practical result is the test for the validity of a beleif system. To you this sounds illogical, I know, but many people besides myself will swear to it as being practical and valid. To say that because something cannot be empirically measured it must be false is flawed as the opposite could just as well be true.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/18/04 08:00 PM)

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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: daba]
    #2903587 - 07/18/04 08:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Just a personal addition to this post I found kind of interesting...I read this post last night before I went to bed. While asleep I was having some quite interesting dreams as usual. Before I knew it I found myself in the thick of a tropical jungle, with a small team of other people. We had about 3 guns each - a machine gun, sniper rifle, and pistol. There was extremely thick fog. I asked one of the other people where I was and they said it was the Veitnam war. Every few minutes I would see some movement in the distance through the fog and we would shoot at it. There were constantly small groups of veitnamese soldiers jumping out at us, but somehow I didn't get shot. I killed a lot of veitnamese soldiers. I then came upon a clearing where there was a lot of people, like a base camp or something. Just as I got there it was sabotaged by a huge amount of veitnamese. I knew this was it, we were all fucked. Me and this female soldier decided to have sex for the hell of it before we died. I was gonna fuck her on top of a pinball machine but then she made me go buy some condoms from the condom vending machine. We fucked and somehow we didn't get killed when we stopped there was piles of dead bodies everywhere. When I woke up I thought of this post straight away and I thought it was kinda strange.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: zee_werp]
    #2903592 - 07/18/04 08:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Condoms!!! Come on, man, your lives were in danger ...no time for that.

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Invisiblezee_werp
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2903618 - 07/18/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I know...it didn't make any sense. Maybe she knew we were gonna survive or something. It pissed me off at the time though, haha!

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OfflineSource
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2904281 - 07/19/04 12:47 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami,

you said,

"G + E + B = G + E

where

G = goal
E = effort
B = belief

then B can be deleted as a null value."

But wouldn't at least on type of belief be absolutely essential - the belief that the goal is attainable?


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
    #2904298 - 07/19/04 12:55 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

You are in a lone sailboat that capsizes and sinks five miles out to sea. You don't believe that are in good enough condition to swim to shore and will most-likely drown, but you have no alternative. You swim and swim and make it, even with a negative belief. The action and the goal were sufficient.

You are in a lone sailboat that capsizes and sinks five miles out to sea. You are not in very good physical condition to swim to shore, but you have tremendous faith that God will give you the strength. You swim and swim, but the waves and tides take their toll on your energy and your flabby muscles cramp and you drown. The belief gave you no special ability.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2904317 - 07/19/04 01:05 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"even with a negative belief"

In a survival situation one must maintain a positive mental attitude or the chances of your survival have lessened. Faith can inspire that positive mental attitude. Ask any outdoor survival nut about that one and you will see I am correct.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2904347 - 07/19/04 01:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Faith in one's abilities is quite different than faith in some outside mystical agent.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2904363 - 07/19/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That is entirely dependant on the individual. Some people would say "Please God get me out of this one and I'll be a good boy from now on." This thought may galvanize their will and cause them to redouble their efforts. Just because the action has a psychological explanation does not mean that the spirit is any less valid. I beleive that the beyond is within.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/19/04 01:31 AM)

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OfflineOOISI
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2904559 - 07/19/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

knowing that a mystical agent was the cause of your "being" and having absolute faith in it is much diiferent

also knowing it gave you the ability to assist youself is much different


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
    #2904616 - 07/19/04 06:14 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, but the belief that the goal was attainable is implicit in the fact that you are making the effort to acheive it, that is

(Given G + E), B

Given that you know the goal and are making an effort, you believe that the goal is acheivable. I think the belief being debated is belief that is not directly related to the goal.

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OfflineSource
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2905290 - 07/19/04 11:39 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Suppose you capsized in the middle of the atlantic rather than '5 miles from shore'. You know there is absolutely no possibility of swimming to shore. I really don't think anyone would even try...rather they would abandon that plan and put thier energy in treading water in the hopes that someone may pass by.

What was that myth, about the guy who was condemned to rolling a boulder to the top of a hill only to have it roll back down again everytime? The first time you heard it, didn't you ask yourself, "why does he bother?"

On the other hand, from an enlightened perspective, there is the possibility of acting without clinging to the results (i.e. swimming for the sake of swimming without clinging to the possible result of actually reaching shore). This is the kind of attitude encouraged in the Bhagavad Gita. And yet in this kind of attitude, I suspect that faith is still required, even if it is the faith that there are no goals to reach.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: deafpanda]
    #2905366 - 07/19/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, but the belief that the goal was attainable is implicit in the fact that you are making the effort to acheive.

The survival instinct does not require any belief. It is ingrained for us to postpone death as long as possible. The people who jumped from the 9/11 towers bought another 10 seconds of life even knowing their possiblity of survivng the fall was nil.

If your car broke down in a bad part of town and you and your family were surrounded by gang-bangers who were about to kill you, you would fight like a hell-cat even though the situation was hopeless.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2905544 - 07/19/04 01:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

But 'instinct' is also a kind of believe, isn't it ?
You are right, if we discuss the believes of cockroaches, as they totally fit into a kind of 'believe-system'.
Even robots fit into that, as their programming is their 'believe'. Believe has not to be conscious. There has not to be morality, you know ?

So the efford is direct proportional to the believe, so:

B(E)*G = Result

:grin: :laugh: :grin:

Now we lost the subject, but come closer to results...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2905579 - 07/19/04 02:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

But 'instinct' is also a kind of believe, isn't it ?

No, it is a set of ingrained behaviors.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
    #2906013 - 07/19/04 04:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I don't really think, there is much difference between 'believe' and 'ingrained behaviour' refering to instinct. Think for a cockroach, or a robot :smile: Isn't it like programming (and breaking it) ?
Belive is only a word for instinct, which could describe the genetical behaviour, in terms of bondries, as well (if you substract the conscious-factor). What other possibilities remain to the unconscious being ?

There you can find the connection between believe and nature.

But here, we come to very metaphysical aspects...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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