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Source
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: deafpanda]
#2901179 - 07/17/04 10:45 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dreams are a window into your soul. Frued and Jung were in-tune enough to know that, that's why they studied the soul via the dream. Sure, Frued's conclusions were absurd, but that is not what is ulltimately important. What is important is that Frued considered dreams imprtant enough TO study! Jung was a prodigy of Frued, and he ulltimately became the superior of Frued. Frued was necessary in order to convince Jung that dreams were important enough to study, but he turned out to be better suited in actually understanding what dreams really are. And thus, the pupil became the master. Jung saw deeper into the soul through dreams and realized that underneath the base animal instincs that come through in the dreams was a deeper yearning for reconciliation with the true self. These yearnings are expressed through certain themes which are repeated with variations in the details. These themes are shared by all mankind as evidenced by the similar myths found throught the world (knowledge of which was made possibile by the work of Joseph Campbell). Or at least that is my interpretation of thier work based on what little information I actually know about them. Someone who knows differently may help me alter my view upon them if I am wrong. I think this is important.
-------------------- What you're searching for is what's searching.
Edited by Source (07/17/04 10:53 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
#2901200 - 07/17/04 10:52 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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What you just said explained nothing, but told only a little Psych history. Generalizations such as "Dreams are a window into your soul" say nothing. I am not trying to be an ass but what light does that shed on the dream discussed?
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Source
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2901218 - 07/17/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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There were generally two types of responses to Daba's dream.
1. Dreams are meaningless and should basically be ignored.
2. Dreams DO have meaning because they are a glimpse of a deeper part of you.
I am in the latter category, trying to argue my case that dreams SHOULD be considered important. My reason for doing this is in order to convince DABA that there may be something more important in this dream than just residual motions.
There was nothing 'General' about my statement "Dreams are a window into your soul". I was being very specific and literal. I mean exactly what I say. Dreams ARE a window into you 'soul'.
-------------------- What you're searching for is what's searching.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
#2901227 - 07/17/04 11:05 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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That remark has still not shed any light on the meaning of his dream? Get my point?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2901249 - 07/17/04 11:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here, try this!
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2901259 - 07/17/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't know if that is safe to use on souls. There may be a contraindication...I prefer vinegar and newspaper to clean off bullshit from my soul window.
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Source
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2901290 - 07/17/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, I get your point...But who am I to shed light on the meaning of HIS dream? As I said in an earlier post, HE is the one who has to find the meaning in the dream. I am only trying to convince him that he should take this seriously enough to spend some time and introspection and find out for himself what that meaning is.
-------------------- What you're searching for is what's searching.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
#2901304 - 07/17/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, but he probably knew that already. Hoping that strangers will deliver the key to your life's mysteries without knowing you is vain and in vain.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Source]
#2901319 - 07/17/04 11:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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he should take this seriously enough to spend some time and introspection and find out for himself what that meaning is.
More like "assign" meaning rather than "discover" meaning. There IS quite a difference.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2901370 - 07/18/04 12:11 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah assigning meaning is much easier to do than really discover... thats how the scientific process works... make a hypothesis...test it. ____ Heh... what a test you have sir if you want to "discover". ____ I think more than anything dreams convey an emotional message, i always have crazy ass dreams... dream about things i couldnt ever possibly describe... but it makes me think about my life i can say that... and what i discover not only comes from my dreams... but in waking thought... realizing other things about my life.
Its an experience... and life is experience...
-------------------- What?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Zero7a1]
#2901377 - 07/18/04 12:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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There is ZERO evidence that there is actually something to discover in dreams.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2901442 - 07/18/04 12:33 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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IF you can pull a meaning out of it that improved your condition, then there was something to discover. Dreams and visions are important, but too subjective to be interpreted in a public forum. Evidence is also subjective in this case. I have much evidence, that is all personally subjective, that visions can impact one's life. Can I prove it? Yes, of course, by showing the change that was incurred. This evidence only is relevant to me, though.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2901464 - 07/18/04 12:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Absolutely no offense intended, but what is the big deal about abusing yourself and then stopping? Using the tired, but useful, "if I hit myself in the head with a hammer and then stop" should the world celebrate my "accomplishment"? Please do not take that personally, I really don't get it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (07/18/04 02:13 AM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2901498 - 07/18/04 12:56 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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This was not a matter of just stopping personal abuse, but a matter of undergoing a complete transformation of behavior, appearance, health, profesion, and attitude in a 5 year period. Maybe you are lucky, but not everyone's life is as perfect as yours. Many people need motivation and guidance that cannot be gained without the spirit. I don't expect the world to celebrate shit about me. I mean nothing to the world. My experiences are no less relevant to me, though. Early in my life I began a chain of bad decision making that was hard to break...it became habit...part of who I am. Breaking that chain required more than I felt that I was capable of...but I did it. My method, while not relevant to someone who has a sparkling, flawless life is meaningful to me as an individual. If you have never experienced such a thing count yourself lucky...to you such spiritual "crutches" are not obviously relevant. You say these sort of beliefs have inspired suicides, but in my case a suicide was prevented because I sensed hope. I did consider it many times out of pure misery. The first step a shaman takes is to heal the self...that is why this thought appeals to me...I needed healing and nobody else could help me because of the type of antisocial asshole I am. Accept that your dream and mine vary and are not relevant to each other. No offense taken, but just as my experience is not relevant to you; your experience may not be relevant to others.
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/18/04 01:29 AM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2901589 - 07/18/04 02:22 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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My experiences are no less relevant to me, though. Early in my life I began a chain of bad decision making that was hard to break...it became habit...part of who I am. Was that Satanic or from the Devil or merely a young man trying out a path and experimenting? Breaking that chain required more than I felt that I was capable of...but I did it. My method, while not relevant to someone who has a sparkling, flawless life is meaningful to me as an individual. My life is far from a sparkling example, but I don't feel anything either evil or divine behind it. If you have never experienced such a thing count yourself lucky...to you such spiritual "crutches" are not obviously relevant. I certainly have experienced the type of despair that you speak of and do not consider myself superior despite the Swami persona. Accept that your dream and mine vary and are not relevant to each other. No offense taken, but just as my experience is not relevant to you; your experience may not be relevant to others. Actually I think they are relevant. The only difference I think you under-estimate your OWN power. No deity, angel or spiritual guide need be added to the equation. Nor am I down on your self-transformation. The key word is "self". YOU did it- and without assistance!
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (07/18/04 11:09 AM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2902124 - 07/18/04 10:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sometimes our convictions and beliefs can be used to galvanize the will. A funny thing is that most descriptions of magic concern using the will to change one's every day reality. Whether the belief is true or false in the ultimate reality is irrelevant as long as the belief functions as a useful description of the world. Practical result is what matters. I will tell you that you are probably right 100% of the time on your statements...but it doesn't change the fact that religious beliefs can serve a practical function in our lives. There are many paths to the center. The literal path you take has much appeal in its sparity and clean efficency, but it never worked for me. To me the world is as you dream it.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2902356 - 07/18/04 12:14 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Whether the belief is true or false in the ultimate reality is irrelevant as long as the belief functions as a useful description of the world.
In mathematics and engineering if
G + E + B = G + E
where
G = goal E = effort B = belief
then B can be deleted as a null value.
Let's take a physical change. Say I want to lose 20 pounds. The equation/plan might simply be: Restrict caloric intake and increase caloric usage. The specifics would depend on the time frame desired for the weight loss and the amount of calories expended/restricted.
The point being, if I took 10 atheists and 10 people of strong faith and put them trhrough the same program (adjusted for individual physiology) in some sort of "Boot Camp" where all meals and activities were controlled; then all would have similar success. The belief element is non-essential.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2903289 - 07/18/04 06:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is not entirely correct. I guess I should be more specific as your responses seem very well thought out. You can have the goal, but without the beleif or inspiration, as I prefer to think of it, the effort may be misdirected. If you forced the people to lose weight in your boot camp, but they were unwilling, you would have to resort to force or inspire them; one or the other. All physical changes are carried out by the individual. I don't think that any change that I have ever undergone was anything less than my own sweat and blood. The inspiration is where the spirit comes in. There is no angel standing there helping me I know. The inspiration, though, can come from beyond the self. This is where God or the spirit comes in. Without inspiration the effort will never be properly made to acheive the goal. Most efforts are self inspired, but sometimes when the fear of one's emminant demise is not enough to inspire or empower us we look to a higher power for the inspiration. I have been in a situation where I was killing myself, but even with the intense fear of my eventual(within a few years) untimely death hanging over me I could not find the motivation and apathy set in. When I looked to the spirit for help I became inspired and I knew how to react to save myself. Musicians and artists are often inspired to create works by spiritual motives, it is very common in life, and it is a true power. This same power can be used to stay the path and make other improvements to the self as well.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Swami]
#2903316 - 07/18/04 06:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you saying i am the evidence? or are you saying 0 ?
-------------------- What?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: utterly Heinous nightmare [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2903458 - 07/18/04 07:19 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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You keep coming back to yourself which is fine, but avoids the question. To lose weight calories intake/outtake MUST be accounted for. This is mandatory. The spirit is NOT necessary. If an atheist can do what you did, then bringing in some X-factor is just noise. You could just as well add any other noise factor and say you lost weight because food was served on pink dishes or because you ate facing south or whatever...
It sounds as if you had previously adopted a belief system in your unworthiness and then shifted your mental state. This is a psychological change requiring no supreme being.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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