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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence?
    #2843432 -

Before I start, please excuse my frivilous use of the word 'God'...

God is beyond all duality, right? Beyond good and evil, beyond light and dark, beyond ecstacy and agony, beyond heaven and hell, beyond right and wrong.

There is no attribute that can be assigned to God. For to imply the the ultimate ground of being has a particular aspect is to deny that it has the opposite aspect; and if the opposite of an aspect does not exist, that existing aspect has absolutely no meaning whatsoever and so does not exist. You can't have heads without tails.

God is the stage, lighting, props, costumes, actors and audience of a dramatic theater production of the interplay between good and evil.

God isn't just the white pieces on the chess board - god is the entire board and all the pieces.

God plays the part of both Jesus and Satan. God rules on the thrones of both heaven and hell.

So...is there really any eternal value to the play? Can light REALLY win over darkness? Can there be an eternal heaven in which there is only pleasure and joy without its opposite conterpart?

Is not the sum total of the entire farce of existence exactly zero - with the dark and light cancelling eachother?

Are we not stuck playing a game which cannot be won but from which we cannot escape because our very existence depends upon the game? Trying to increase pleasure and reduce pain...bring about peace on earth...banish the forces of darkness...fullfill the vow of the Bodhisattva to end all suffering...find truth.

Generally speaking, I think we are caugt up in this game with a feeling that there is some sort of ETERNAL value to it...as if God itself (reality) is at stake; However, in light of what I said earlier, how can God-reality-ultimate existence be effected by the outcome?

Light never completely abolishes darkness and darkness never completely abolishes light...they just keep going around and around and around and around... The darkest of night immediately preceedes the beginning of dawn and the highest noon immediately preceeds the beginning of dusk. Everything moves but nothing changes.

Our perception of pain is relative to our perception of pleasure and vice-versa. The deeper we experience pleasure the deeper we experience pain. The one provides the contrast for the other. Our sum total experience of pleasure and pain must always equal zero.

This much I know...

But then what is the point of doing good? Why do our teachers always tell us to be kind and love one-another? Why do they try to teach at all? If every direction you point leads back to the same place, why point at all? Who is there to save? Are they trying to perpetuate the game? Are they trying to fool us? Are they telling us to play the game harder in order to help us realize the truth...that the game cannot be won?

Yaeko Iwasaki in her letters to her master Harada-roshi writes after experiencing deep kensho:

"You and I have cherished a profound illusion: that it is exalting to vow to rescue all deluded creatures no matter how many aeons it takes."

Harada-roshi replied:

"But one so deluded is called a Bodhisattva. To realize there is no one to save is the (real) saving"


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2843504 -

I think trying to place (or seek for) a value to existence is a natural urge that can be (and maybe should be) overcome. You're point about God not having an attribute to which it can be assigned (please dismiss the reference that "it" is separate) is something I, and most agnostics, have accepted. It's beyond our comprehension. IMO, attempting to decipher seems futile, primative, and foolish. Sure, we can easily detect patterns and relationships such as dualities, but I'm confident that God is far beyond this. We cannot detect "it" enough to understand.

"I am not your carpet ride. I am the sky." Audioslave

If God is indeed everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly (not that I really embrace the concepts of good and evil), then there is no righteous direction to choose.

Hmm...I'm not sure how much of ths is related to your post, but I hope some of it made sense.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

Edited by viaggio (06/30/04 03:28 PM)

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2843560 -

Earth has elements of both paradise and suffering, so that we may choose good or choose evil.

Heaven and hell is because of the impenetrable division between them. If you are righteous, you'll be a particle in the light, if you are evil you'll remain forever in darkness.

When demons try to bust into heaven they are bouncing off of God's drums.


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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2843819 -

Ants cannot question their existance; they just continue to fulfill their purpose. We can question our existance, but we are unqualified to answer the question to our own satisfaction. I believe in following the example presented by the ants.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2844278 -

Unfortunately there are alot of preconcieved notions in your post that might get in the way of finding a true answer. It is because i don't quite agree with some ideas you mentioned that i won't be able to give you an answer you wished for.
However, we could look at it this way: Good is the thesis, Bad is the anti-thesis, and our 'job' as third density beings is to find the synthesis, which could be called spiritual neutrality (why not).


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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2844283 -

Or how about another view on the subjet:
So from what i read on the shroomery, there is the negative energy, the positive energy and the neutral one. I don't have much knowledge on this, but i think i got the main idea of it. Negative energy = our concieved notion of Bad. same for positive=Good... but what would neutral energy equal?
Let me quote you: "Is not the sum total of the entire farce of existence exactly zero - with the dark and light cancelling eachother?"
"Our perception of pain is relative to our perception of pleasure and vice-versa. The deeper we experience pleasure the deeper we experience pain. The one provides the contrast for the other. Our sum total experience of pleasure and pain must always equal zero."

If I fusion up what you and I have said, and if you accept that pleasure is positive energy and that pain is negative energy, this is what would happen:
Since we can deeply experience pleasure and pain, then we can also experience it less deeply, and we could reach a point at which pleasure and pain don't add up anymore because there aren't any. What would all of our potential energy for Good and Bad become though? Well it would simply have been sucked up by the number zero, between negativity and positivity, like a dark hole. But come on answer the question, what did it actually become? Energy can't evaporte like that. Neutrality =..... (fill in the hole cuz i don't have a fuckin clue)

I'm not part of the club of the Eternal battle between Good and Evil, I believe the real "values"(<= i don't like that word though) lie in the attempt to go beyond the notions of Good and Evil, therefore diminishing the contrasts between the two. You can make your own guess on where this could lead to, mine is evolution of conciousness.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2844358 -

In the area of the event horizon around black holes particles and anti-particles spontaneously and simultaneously spring into existence out of 'nothing'...electron and positron. Usually they follow a parabolic arc away from and back to eachother, like a ball bouncing on a mirror. When they meet up again they annihilate eachother and nothing remains...or so the theory goes anyway.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, it sounds like we agree that both good and evil are only different aspects of God. I know this isn't anything new, I would venture to say that most people who post here would agree with that. But then we keep on talking in terms of being 'better' people and making the world a 'better' place and finding peace and joy and ending suffering and bringing down the opressive system...all of which plays into the idea that 'good' can overcome 'evil'.

I'm just trying to find some footing here.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2844588 -

Check this out, here's my logic on it..

If the negative energy is not countered by the production of positive energy, the negative energy will overpower and all will be out of balance.

Imagine, if you will, a tennis court. The ball represents the status of the balance between "good and evil" or positive and negative. As the players hit the ball back and forth, it remains in a fluctuation and an equilibrium both at the same time.

We are playing the game, we just don't realize it.

So, to answer your question, we have to work to contribute to the good in order to keep the bad from overtaking.

Or think about it this way:

"Good" is just a label we've given to "working back towards the center point".. we're on a constant roller coaster ride, up and down up and down, moving towards the center point until we overshoot it and end up on the other side.. then it's the journey back towards the center and repeat process.

But why are we in disbalance in the first place, you ask?

Imagine we all float on a surface that is like a pond's surface, except not effected by wind. Instead of wind, the following occurs:

When one of us moves (either in negative or positive manner) it creates ripples. These ripples disturb others floating on the surface, and they try to steady themselves. (building an ego, defining good and bad) This in turn causes more ripples, which disturb others.

Soon, everyone is trying to fight the ripples caused by everyone else and there is no chance of neutrality. (the goal) UNLESS everyone chooses to work together and uniformly stop contributing to the disturbances.

The question everyone wants to know the answer to is, who or what moved first? (Perhaps the story of adam and eve pertains in the bible's version of this metaphor) Who created the first disturbance that set off the chain reaction?

The answer is, you will never know and there is no point trying to figure it out. Instead, find a way to ride the waves so that you do not get smashed by them.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Edited by JacquesCousteau (06/30/04 06:16 PM)

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2844593 -

:grin: hehe, no sorry, i think you misunderstood me, my bad. And i wasn't actually asking what a black hole was, i was having a monologue, but i liked your definition though.

What i was saying was kinda OT i guess. I don't agree that Good and Evil are different aspects of God, they're just ideas made up by our ego. God is unity, and Good and Evil are contradictary. This is normal because our ego tends to separate itself from reality by means of contradictions. The idea of Good and Evil actually 'disconnect' us from God, from Reality. And if you get rid of such ideas, then the energy you had previously wasted on such contradictions will be used on something else, something else than judging, taking sides, it will be used on something neutral and neutrality is the realm in which ego has no more control. Imagine what would happen if all the energy that the ego was previously wastefully consuming was dedicated to this neutral state of mind? I'd guess there would have to take place some major psychological change...earlier i guessed it to be evolution of consciousness, now i'll just add that the moment all negativity and positivity is tranferred to neutrality, that's enlightenment.
 
But i guess different opinions come with different definitons of what God is.

I hope you understood this, if you dig what i'm saying i can go on explaining how i think all this ties to the "values" of existence, but i'm goin to sleep now. if you don't understand shit, just tell me i need writing skills
peace


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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2844601 -

Rock on man, I feel like you just gave a literal explanation of what I was saying above in metphors :smile:

And you touched on some aspects that I hadn't considered, and I do think you're on to something.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2844611 -

good and evil, light and dark, hot and cold are all just mental divisions we make relative to our point of view.
how about - legion and oneness.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2844706 -

I must say, your analogies sound straangely familliar to me... :crazy: 

Either way, I agree and definitely think both your's and exclusive's posts can be looked at in the same light here..especially with the notion of neutrality being a probable goal in this crazy ass historical movie we seem to be taking part in.

I'm really liking this post so far :smile:


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Pot cures cancer.  Tell your friends.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: mr crisper]
    #2844723 -

What mr crisper said  :thumbup:


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2845628 -

Your metaphor of heaven not being able to exist without hell inspired a visualization in me. Perhaps our myths of a paradisical, ecstatic heaven for the righteous and a tormenting, eternal suffering for the evil has created these situations on earth. Our ideas leading to reality, our myths dictating our destiny.

We have an extremely small percentage (~5%) in USA that have 90% of the wealth. It's rediculous. So there is this elite who live pleasure rich, limiteless consumption oriented lifestyles and meanwhile it takes 100's if not 1000's of lower class- middle class people to provide this lifestyle for them.

An example: I made a sandwich today. It cost about 2 bucks total. 2 slices of bread, some ham from a pig, some turkey, some lettuce, 2 slices of swiss cheese and some mustard. Had I had to make all that myself, it woulda taken me months to make the sandwich. Instead, I pay 20 bucks for the ingredients in a supermarket and can make 10 sandwiches. However, all the mustard, cheese, meat, etc had been made by 100's of employees in agriculture that don't make much money at all, and then the distributors above them who make very little themselves, ie the grocery store clerks.

Now imagine someone at the top of the pyramid who consumes only bottled water, SUV's, premium gas, prepackaged foods or organice only, gourmet etc.. you get the point. There are a massive amount of people making their living by providing these basics through labor.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.

Edited by sheister (07/01/04 12:17 AM)

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2846274 -

In my mind everything is the one thing, and the one thing just is. No good, no evil, those only exist in the sense that we invented them, just mental conceptions, illusionary labels. But in that sense that are real, and in that sense even those illusions must be an aspect of the "One". In the realm of philosophy and religion i have pretty to my satisfaction found the answers to all but two questions, atleast 2 is all i can think of right now. Those are "Is the One conscience?" what i mean is do all of us conscience beings and the rest of the one add up to a conscience self aware entity? like we seem to be. Is each conscience entity the equivelent of a synapse or nerve cell in the mind of the one? each barely conscience if at all but takin together are conscience and aware? Ya those are lots of questions but i just threw em out there to illuminate my real question.

The second question i still have is this... "If the one is in effect a conscience self aware entity does it have free will?" As for this question i think the answer is probably "No". Because the one is still subject to its environment. This is kinda hard to conceive but the one does find itself in a situation, probably the situation of being and being the only thing that is, or being no thing, and the only no thing that is. So that is its environment, and its genetics i suppose would be us, and all the lil pieces that make the one what it is. But that is kind of a contridiction i realize, since its all one, and the one is all there is, its all the same thing, no real pieces, just the "one" So can the One, help but to be? and be what it is at any given moment, if moments do exist at all? even if they dont, can it still help but to be? can it choose not to be? Or choose to exist in some other state of being regardless of the parts that make up the one, and the situation/circumstances the one finds itself in?

Ok maybe i have a 3rd or 4th big question im still fairly not sure of and i guess that would be... " Or is the truth of being completely alien then any possiblity yet articulated, beyond free will, or determinism, beyond even the idea of the "one" beyond all circumstances yet concieved? Maybe all those conceptions we have like freedom, choice, free will, determinism, indeterminism, time, motion, circumstance, maybe they all are not just incomplete, or somewhat inaccurate but instead maybe they are all just completely flat out wrong.

Really i think this is how it probably is, the truth seems to lie in the middle of paradox after paradox, and if that is true for us then it must be true for the one, or the whole, whatever you choose to call "it", because we are it, and it is us after all. Crap i just thought of another big question i dont have a clue about...

Ok #4 or 5... "If what i just said is they way it is..the truth of the nature of being lying in the middle of paradox, assuming the one is self aware, greater then the sum of its parts, does it know and understand that truth fully between all the paradoxs, or are they still paradoxs for "it" too. So ultimately is the "one" nearly just as in the dark about its nature as we are about it, or does it understand the truth of being perfectly. I guess..Does it know itself completely?

P.S. If you wanna challenge my assumptions on free will, go to the free will is bs post.
Sincerely,
that which is, and has no choice but to be.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2846383 -

  :wink: ya man, i also feel that there are similarities between what you and i have said. I really liked your metaphores.
I can try and give an answer to "who/what created the first disturbance that set off the chain reaction?" (in regards to your pond metaphore)...IMO the moment a man was in need of the help of another, the moment that one realized that possessing provisions for two was useful, at that moment equality disappeared, ownership introduced itself, and work became necessary. This could have created quite a disturbance in the natural way of life...but i'm OT...

In regards to your tennis court metaphore, i like it, cuz it really represents the game we're playing unto ourselves...but the game can be ended. If the two players get closer to the net, they start having very short volleys one off the other, and the game ends once the tennis ball is held still between the two rackets right over the net. This image represents Unity at the neutral point.

Source:
We say there is Good and Evil, for example we say love is good and jealousy is bad. But why do we divide life the way we do?  by saying one thing is good and the other is bad, we are creating contradictary conflicts. This doesn't mean jealousy, hate, brutality aren't present in the hearts of men, and that there isn't any absence of compassion, of love, but why do we divide life in two? one part that we call good and the other evil? Aren't they really one and the same? When the mind is totally conscient, alert, watchful, vigilant, there is no good nor evil - there is simply a state of wakefulness. Goodness, then, is not a quality, its not a vertue, its not a value: its a state of love. When there is love, there is no Good or Evil.

I think the real "value" of existence is this state of love.

Observe the workings of your mind, and you will see that when it ceases to think in terms of what it could become (which is contradictary), there is a suspension of action, which isn't stagnation - it is a state of total attention, of neutrality.

For example, when you see a tree, do you see it in its integrity? If you don't fully see it, then you don't see it at all. If, when you walk by a tree you say "look, its a tree", or "this is a chestnut tree", or "this tree is quite ugly", then you do not see the tree. Same goes for clear, neutral conscience. If you don't fully observe your mind, then you are not fully conscient.
The tree includes the roots, the trunk, the big and small branches, the leafs, the dead leafs, the the green leafs, the flowers, the fruits... In the same way, the mind that is in a state of neutrality, the mind that is vigilant  sees itself and its reactions of condemnation, approbation, of struggle, refusal, denial, your hopes, your despairs, your futility, your frustrations.
Are you aware of your mind this same way, which is as simple as seeing a painting in its entirety - instead of seeing a section of it and asking "Who painted this?"

Get it?


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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2846473 -

Quote:
In regards to your tennis court metaphore, i like it, cuz it really represents the game we're playing unto ourselves...but the game can be ended. If the two players get closer to the net, they start having very short volleys one off the other, and the game ends once the tennis ball is held still between the two rackets right over the net. This image represents Unity at the neutral point.



Yes, precisely. I was stoned when I wrote that long post, so I never got back to the point of that metaphor, and you've hit the nail on the head exactly.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2847134 -

Exclusive,

Hmmm...I'm doing a really lousy job of communicating here. I brought up the whole black hole idea to illustrate the possibility that opposing forces (in this case the electron and positron) derive from and return to the same state and leave no trace. It's basically another spin on the tennis court theme...the state at which the tennis ball is held between the two rackets over the net is the state at which the particle and ant-particle meet again and resolve into nothing.

I don't believe in the absolute existence of good and evil and I am not arguing that they are real atributes of God. To have one, we must have the other...but as I said, the net total is always zero...as in they are phantoms without any reality.

In the Buddhist 'wheel of existence' paintings which depict the cycles of existence throught the different realms of devils, devas, hungry ghosts, humans and animals, near the hub of the wheel are depicted men performing good actions leading to the higher realms - pushing the wheel up - and bad actions leading to the lower realms - pushing the wheel down. It is the culmination of both of these types of actions that keeps the wheel of existence spinning. The wheel spins by the momentum of the karmic ramifications of both bad AND good actions. Those who rise through the karmic consequenses of good actions always fall again into the hell realms as the merit of the good karma wears off. There is no end to it. The game that cannot be won. There is no way to stay forever in the heavenly realms of the Divas. All action performed with desire (even for good) creates karma and only causes the game to continue. The net value of the wheel...ZERO.

Standing OUTSIDE (not in the game) of the wheel is the Buddha of Compassion telling us, "The way to get off the wheel is to not play. Perform no deed with desire. Forget about the outcome of the game. Just let it go!".

As for the beginning of the imbalance...the first turn of the wheel...

In every instant time and space is created anew. We start off in the Garden of Eden without the knowlege of Good and Evil. No distinctions are made. The animals have not been named, everything is precisely what it is and we do not look through conceptions. We can choose to accept this paradise OR we can choose to eat of the tree of knowlege. The moment we partake of the "Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil" and begin to make distinctions reagarding what is good and bad, pleasurable or painful and begin acting in a way that chases after the 'good' and runs from the 'bad'...we are banished from the garden and suffer. Then, in the next instant, creation is made anew and it all starts again.

So, we must learn to let go of these distinctions and live in the middle. 'Neutral', as you said.

But compassion, love, helping others...these are all actions that tend to belong to the (albeit)imaginary category known as 'Good'. If neutrality is the only way off this wheel then why do our spiritual teachers throughout the ages tell us to 'do good' and thereby perpetuate the game?


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: Source]
    #2847173 -

Perhaps those teachers had their logic a little tilted.

Edited: Because I'm stoned, and that didn't sound very logical.. I'm gonna think on it a bit more...

Edit again:

Okay, back.

I think that the problem is that these teachers are actually slightly misguided themselves.

Do you think a buddhist monk is going to advise you to go out and do good deeds all over town, or sit in his monestary and meditate?

His advice would be of a neutral action.

At the same time, I'm sure buddhist monks do plenty of "good" in their day to day life. For instance, they probably don't kill things unless absolutely necessary.

But why do you think that is? I don't think it is because it is "good to preserve life" but instead, perhaps it is because killing things for no reason is trying to change what is, which will only move you further from your goals of feeling balanced personally.

Shit, I hope that made some sense.

Edited by JacquesCousteau (07/01/04 11:51 AM)

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Re: Is There Any Eternal Value To Existence? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2847200 -

Made sense to me :thumbup:


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Pot cures cancer.  Tell your friends.

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