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Offlinefreddurgan
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Does time exist without life?
    #4326940 - 06/23/05 01:17 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If there was no life..wouldn't a million years be just like a nanosecond? The entire earth basically evolved instantly because there was nobody around to experience it. Same as sound..doesn't exist without a conscious hearing-capable organism to experience it.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4326955 - 06/23/05 01:22 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed, when we think of time we're actually thinking of our subjective human experience of time, but there wouldn't even be any experience without a mind there to perceive it.

Who knows if there'd even be time? What exists outside of perception, after all?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4327083 - 06/23/05 01:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

time is likely a manifestation of consciousness.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4327175 - 06/23/05 02:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

why is a second a second long? because of how fast the brain thinks.

imagine if it took the brain 100 years to think of what it thinks in a second.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4327486 - 06/23/05 04:04 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Here is one example of why time exists without life or consciousness.

A rock in a river is broken down over an amount of "time". It starts off as a big rock but over "time" physical weathering breaks it down. From the point the rock started out to the point it is totally broken down is time.

There is still time maybe not in the same understanding as we have it but things still change over "time". Things start and end, come and go, and change. All of these things happen in "time"..

You cannot negate time.

Edited:

Time is just a word we put on the action of change, the amount of ___ between start and finish, etc etc. Im not very philosophical so if somebody could take this further I would appreciate it.

Time without life would basically be:

"An interval separating two points on this continuum"

taken from dictionary.com


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m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.


Edited by mattzdope (06/23/05 04:12 AM)


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #4327510 - 06/23/05 04:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mattzdope said:
Here is one example of why time exists without life or consciousness.

A rock in a river is broken down over an amount of "time". It starts off as a big rock but over "time" physical weathering breaks it down. From the point the rock started out to the point it is totally broken down is time.

There is still time maybe not in the same understanding as we have it but things still change over "time". Things start and end, come and go, and change. All of these things happen in "time"..

You cannot negate time.

Edited:

Time is just a word we put on the action of change, the amount of ___ between start and finish, etc etc. Im not very philosophical so if somebody could take this further I would appreciate it.

Time without life would basically be:

"An interval separating two points on this continuum"

taken from dictionary.com




a rock could be only a figment of your/our imagination.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4327848 - 06/23/05 10:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Insofar as there is matter, there is spatial extension and if there is spatial extension - space - there is time. The 'fabric' of creation is space-time and this hyphenated term cannot exist separately. Even before there were particles (at the birth of the universe), there was some undefined 'plasma' condition which expanded into a non-material space-time continuum, according to theory.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4327899 - 06/23/05 11:22 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Time is an effect of conceptual thinking, notions held within the mind, give false measure to all pervading, measureless space, and a seemingly linear projection onto the ever changing phenomena of our daily lives. If there is no life, then who is there to create this concept of time?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327910 - 06/23/05 11:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> If there is no life, then who is there to create this concept of time?

So unless something is experienced, it doesn't exist?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Seuss]
    #4327935 - 06/23/05 11:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Time does'nt exist as something spearate from our own minds. In fact, nothing does! Its not that nothing exists at all, its just that phenomena do not arise independantly of our own minds. Things require attachments of labels for us to expereince them as existent phenomena. Im going to write a spearate post on this soon, so stay tuned. :grin:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4327986 - 06/23/05 12:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I am not defining time-as-measured by human or any other intelligence. I am speaking to 'duration' which is a property of any 'event.' Prior to the theoretical Big Bang, there was Nothing, No Thing, not even space existed. Personally, my belief is that there was only GOD Who/Which has no extension-duration. Once the 'Singularity' was created 'out of Nothing' [ex Nihilo], there simultaneously arose a 'before' the creation, and an 'after' the creation of that Singularity (which rapidly extended omnidirectionally to form space against the receding boundary of the Eternal surrounding it.

It is not clear just how 'fast' the new universe expanded, since there were no particles yet or laws of physics as we know them to describe the early universe. Perhaps the speed of light was surpassed since that 'constant' belongs to photons traveling through a vacuum, and the density of the new universe did not allow for a vacuum yet. Maybe an expanding sphere (or other shapes have been suggested) of an energy that no longer exists (or perhaps it still exists as 'sparks' in stellar nurseries) - only its echo can be heard as background 'noise.' Hey, "Let There Be Light!" [Fiat Lux!]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4328089 - 06/23/05 12:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i doubt that time is actively created by the mind, i can't influence time with my mind on the perception of it. all my attempts at jedi powers have failed.

but when we talk about time, we're implicitly talking about time in relation to a mind, our mind.

maybe it isn't a hierarchy with mind on top and time on the bottom, or vice versa, but they are coextensive, one.

we are time.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: freddurgan]
    #4328128 - 06/23/05 12:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Time is a dimension which exists independently of our perception. If that wasn't the case, we couldn't quantify time before existing life, but we can, that's a fact.
What people usually discuss as subjective is the measurement of time, that's a whole different story ...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4328333 - 06/23/05 01:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yet your assumption would be that the human perception of what time is really exists outside of our human perception, and there's no way to verify this. Following simplicity then, we can only know our human perception of time and not time itself, thereby leaving the question of whether time exists out of human perception meaningless.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Ravus]
    #4328500 - 06/23/05 02:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Eternity is yet another question. The absence of human measurements or conceptions of time - linear or cyclic - doesn't mean Eternity. The absence of the perception of linear time may thrust one's awareness into various subjective states of the suspension of time, but this is not what I was writing about. I have experienced expanded intuition so that a great 'expanse' was perceived between the arising of each thought. I experienced something of what Buddhist psychology teaches about 'mind-moments' and The Void [Sunyata, Clear Light], but again, I was not writing about such things. I was speaking abstractly about time as duration and duration being integrally one with events.

There is no such thing as 'eternal duration' - that is an oxymoron. There is duration and there is Eternity, and they are ontologically separate. Space-time, form, cannot exist eternally. Form exists in spatial extension, and extension, immediately suggests one or more points 'extending from' one or more other points. Spatial extension cannot be separated from the duration of the event of extension from point A to point B.

What you are saying is solipsistic - that outside of one's perception, one doesn't really know if anything exists. Time does not exist independently of space. Creation is a space-time continuum (as Terrance McKenna used to enjoy saying). We are one with the 'fabric' of space-time. It may be that consciousness is the other side of the coin, that the universe is 'psychoid' in nature: psycho-physical, like we are, but on a grand scale.

There is a dimension to human existence which I believe transcends space-time, and that aspect of our being is the reflection or Microcosm of BEING Itself - the Macrocosm. This is to say that we are made 'in the image and likeness' of the Macrocosm, just like the Good Book says. This of course is my own intuition and belief that those words convey.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4332128 - 06/24/05 01:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> Prior to the theoretical Big Bang, there was Nothing, No Thing, not even space existed.

This is one of my favorite 'mind experiments' to think about. Space is the lack of 'something' (matter/energy/etc), but is defined by the existance of something. For example, one cannot measure the space between two non-existant points. Two points must exist for the space between them to be measured. So in essense, space existed before the big bang, but it was unmeasurable and undefinable... at least in terms of duality.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Seuss]
    #4332364 - 06/24/05 02:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Very clever indeed! Space is like the mother potential of all manifestations. I find it really comical that some people, even some scientists try to label space, as if it were a thing. :lol:


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Edited by Sinbad (06/24/05 02:32 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332417 - 06/24/05 02:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

> Space is the mother of all manifestations.

And yet space cannot exist without other manifestations.


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Seuss]
    #4332428 - 06/24/05 02:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I changed it, but essentially yes. The reason i edited it is becuase to say that Space is the mother of all manifestations could be misread to imply that i am attaching a label onto nothing. But as far as space and manifestations go, yes, they are totally interdependant.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Does time exist without life? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4332465 - 06/24/05 02:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

nothing would exist without conciousness


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